CM:N OoB, TO&E Approach??

[Paper Tiger]

And with luck, all that cool stuff can be back-inserted by the player into scenarios created for the earlier game. I think. Maybe

I would be surprised if that happens to be the case. I suspect that the Bulge title will feature all new OBs for both sides. You guys are the WW2 grogs so you'll know just how much (or little) each side's OBs changed in the second half of the freakin' war in the ETO.

Certainly the new title will require new terrain textures (autumnal and winter foliage), buildings and will have to feature snow (light, deep, falling etc). Thus the need for a new title. They won't be compatible with the Normandy game.

[Michael Emrys]

I suspect that the Bulge title will feature all new OBs for both sides. You guys are the WW2 grogs so you'll know just how much (or little) each side's OBs changed in the second half of the freakin' war in the ETO.

You shouldn't take what I wrote to imply that ahistorical OOBs will be possible. I simply meant that once Fallschirmjäger, for instance, have been introduced into the system, they become playable in Normandy scenarios. Unless I misremember, Steve has said as much.

Certainly the new title will require new terrain textures (autumnal and winter foliage), buildings and will have to feature snow (light, deep, falling etc). Thus the need for a new title. They won't be compatible with the Normandy game.

That is correct. We can hope though that such things are coded to be applicable in time and location, and not just to specific game families. Time will tell...

Michael

[Barkhorn1x]

Hmmm...Ooookkk...but there is this quote from BF:

Volksgrenadiers did not come into being until Fall of 1944 and didn't see significant amounts of action until the Bulge. So they won't be in the 1st WW2 ETO series ("Family") at all, not even in later Modules.

How does one square that comment w/ inclusion of a Bulge module?

[Jonny(FGM)]

Because the bulge won't be a module, it'll be a whole new game

[Jonny(FGM)]

Me thinks BF should collate it's plans for the future games and modules (at least all the stuff they have confirmed to the community)

It seems to me a lot of people are getting their knickers in a twist because they've misunderstood the drips and drabs of info that are knocking around the forums.

[Barkhorn1x]

Because the bulge won't be a module, it'll be a whole new game

Ahh...understood.

[Jonny(FGM)]

Although it would be great if we could launch all the WW2 games/modules with one EXE and have it as one big game.

Especially in many years time when Ostfront is out, operation unthinkable anyone?

[mike_the_wino]

Although it would be great if we could launch all the WW2 games/modules with one EXE and have it as one big game.

Especially in many years time when Ostfront is out, operation unthinkable anyone?

This hasn't been completely eliminated as a possibility but it isn't guaranteed. The last that I remember Steve said it would involving coding on par with a main title/ family not just a module. At which point a bunch of people agreed that an additional $50 is a price we would pay. But that was the hint that I remember.

Who knows what the game engine will even look like by the time the WW2 set of families is all wrapped up. Hell, the BFC gents might just get fed up with us and bugger off.

[Michael Emrys]

Who knows what the game engine will even look like by the time the WW2 set of families is all wrapped up. Hell, the BFC gents might just get fed up with us and bugger off.

It all hinges on whether the nursing home will let Charles keep a computer in his room.

Michael

[Battlefront.com]

I should probably post something more "permanent" about our plans, but I have actually been very specific about what we're planning on doing when we have conversations like this. Here's another go at it in Forum form

CMx2 stuff is divided up into four basic concepts:

Epoch (or as we call it, Track)

Family

Game

Module

We plan on having three Epochs in development concurrently (i.e. all at the same time). These are:

Modern

Western Front

Eastern Front

We can, and already have, add to this depending on various conditions. The example at the moment is Afghanistan, which is a one shot "Epoch" of sorts (i.e. Afghanistan is self contained).

Next is what we call a Family. This is a grouping of a base Game and 2-4 Modules. For example, Combat Mission: Shock Force is a Family within the Modern Epoch. This particular Family consists of Marines, British Forces, and NATO.

Each Family is a self contained group of products. You can purchase any Module you want and it will work with the base Game and other purchased Modules without any hiccups. You can not, however, mix and match stuff from one Family with another. For example, CM:SF 2 will contain a base Game with 2-4 Modules, none of which will work with CM:SF 1 and vice versa.

Normandy is the first Family release for the Western Front Epoch. The second Family will be Bulge. Currently we plan on having 3 Modules for each.

Normandy's base game has American forces against core Wehrmacht forces. 1st Module will have Commonwealth on one side, Waffen SS and FJ on the other. 2nd Module will cover Arnhem and will contain the forces necessary to fight those battles. 3rd Module will be a sort of mix-mosh of stuff not covered in the base Game or the first two Modules.

By the time the Normandy Family is complete, you should be able to recreate any battle within that timeframe. Well, within reason of course

Steve

[Barkhorn1x]

Now that is a great update. Thank you.

So, the "Normandy" family will run through approx. Sept. '44, correct? And the "Bulge" family will take things from Oct. to the end?

[Lt Belenko]

I should probably post something more "permanent" about our plans, but I have actually been very specific about what we're planning on doing when we have conversations like this. Here's another go at it in Forum form

CMx2 stuff is divided up into four basic concepts:

Epoch (or as we call it, Track)

Family

Game

Module

We plan on having three Epochs in development concurrently (i.e. all at the same time). These are:

Modern

Western Front

Eastern Front

............

Steve

Great explanation.

Is Eastern Front bring developed concurrently or will that be way down the road?

[Michael Emrys]

By the time the Normandy Family is complete, you should be able to recreate any battle within that timeframe.

But we'll not be able to use units from the Bulge family if I understand you correctly? That's a trifle disappointing, although maybe not an issue if the number and variety of units in the last "clean up" module is sufficiently comprehensive.

Michael

[JonS]

Michael:

... a Family ... is a grouping of a base Game and 2-4 Modules. ... Each Family is a self contained group of products. You can purchase any Module you want and it will work with the base Game and other purchased Modules without any hiccups. You can not, however, mix and match stuff from one Family with another.

Normandy is the first Family release for the Western Front Epoch. The second Family will be Bulge. Currently we plan on having 3 Modules for each.

So, that would be a 'no'.

IIRC, the thinking there is that late in 1944 almost every unit in the Allied and Axis Orbats experienced a change in their TOEs to a greater or lesser extent. In some cases it was quite subtle, such as adding an extra BAR to each US rifle squad. In others it was more marked, such as more Fireflies in UK tank troops, or the introduction of new models such as the Comet, Sherman Jumbo, or M36. Other changes were quite fundamental. Also, there was a large shift in weather and - to a lesser degree terrain - at about the same time.

Overall, the period between the end of Market-Garden and the start of the BoB marks a logical, albeit blurry and imperfect, break point.

Granted BFC might commit to making modules compatible between families, but that would also commit them to perpetual backwards-compatibility which is something I suspect they'd rather avoid.

[Battlefront.com]

So, the "Normandy" family will run through approx. Sept. '44, correct? And the "Bulge" family will take things from Oct. to the end?

Correct. It happens to be a good, natural point to cut the Western Front in half. I'll touch on that below.

Is Eastern Front bring developed concurrently or will that be way down the road?

It will be developed concurrently, however we haven't started it yet. Meaning eventually we will have the three Epochs listed above running all at the same time. At the moment we only have two Epochs going at the same time PLUS one of the "Wild Cards" (Afghanistan).

But we'll not be able to use units from the Bulge family if I understand you correctly? That's a trifle disappointing, although maybe not an issue if the number and variety of units in the last "clean up" module is sufficiently comprehensive.

You can not mix Bulge stuff with Normandy stuff. Correct.

What you need to simulate a battle between June and September 1944 will be in Normandy. What you need to simulate a battle between October 1944 and April 1945 will be in Bulge. People wanting to make ahistorical combinations of units between these two games will, of course, be out of luck. But that's not a concern to us any more than it is the inability to fight US Abrams vs. King Tigers.

IIRC, the thinking there is that late in 1944 almost every unit in the Allied and Axis Orbats experienced a change in their TOEs to a greater or lesser extent. In some cases it was quite subtle, such as adding an extra BAR to each US rifle squad. In others it was more marked, such as more Fireflies in UK tank troops, or the introduction of new models such as the Comet, Sherman Jumbo, or M36. Other changes were quite fundamental. Also, there was a large shift in weather and - to a lesser degree terrain - at about the same time.

Correct. The two games are, from a production standpoint, quite different from each other. Of course there is overlap. For example, PzIV models that were in use at the end of the Normandy timeframe were used all the way to the end of the war. Those will obviously be included in Bulge because they are needed for that setting as well. But June 1944 TO&E for US Airborne will be in Normandy and not Bulge because by the time Bulge is set that particular unit organization was no longer in use.

Overall, the period between the end of Market-Garden and the start of the BoB marks a logical, albeit blurry and imperfect, break point.

Everything is on a continuum, so in that sense no break point is perfect. However, some breakpoints are of course better than others As you say, this is a logical breakpoint.

As it is Normandy will contain a base set of units and roughly one "changeover" to newer forms. A pretty good number of new weapons and vehicles were introduced during this time period. The setting is roughly summer in France and Netherlands.

Bulge will also contain a base set of units and roughly one "changeover" to newer forms. As with Normandy, a healthy amount of new weapons and vehicles came into being. It's setting is roughly winter in Germany and Belgium. It makes a lot of sense to separate the two and not just from a production standpoint.

Granted BFC might commit to making modules compatible between families, but that would also commit them to perpetual backwards-compatibility which is something I suspect they'd rather avoid.

Yup Backwards compatibility within a single Family is tough enough. Trying to have a rolling compatibility, across multiple Families, is something that would create many headaches. Headaches for us means some sort of pain for the customer. Be it slower releases of new content, fewer new game features, etc.

Steve

[MeatEtr]

What you need to simulate a battle between June and September 1944 will be in Normandy. What you need to simulate a battle between October 1944 and April 1945 will be in Bulge.

Steve

I could of sworn at one time the plan was to have three families for the whole Western Front? Not that I'm complaining, I thought three families was a bit too much to cover this.

I'll be the first in line to pre-order both the Western Front and Eastern Front families.

[TheVulture]

What you need to simulate a battle between June and September 1944 will be in Normandy. What you need to simulate a battle between October 1944 and April 1945 will be in Bulge. People wanting to make ahistorical combinations of units between these two games will, of course, be out of luck. But that's not a concern to us any more than it is the inability to fight US Abrams vs. King Tigers.

Steve

The possible point of concern that some people have here is that the engine will continue to develop. What if in the Bulge title there are some wonderful new features (UI changes, tweaks to tacAI behaviour, noticable improvements iin the modelling of some areas) that make the game significantly different / better to play? Then you don't have a simple choice of picking a game based on timeframe. You might want a battle in August 1944, but really want some modelling features and the UI from the Bulge title.

Of course, that is the exact same situation that existed with CMBO, CMBB and CMAK (and one reason that I never played CMBO for more than about 30 seconds, having first played CMBB). That wasn't the end of the world, although a lot of people did try to re-create their favourite CMBO scenarios in CMAK to be able to play it with the engine improvements. I'm pretty sure you'll see user-made Normady scenarios for the Bulge game to use any engine improvements, replete with grogs complaining about the ahistorical TO&Es necessary to do this.

You are dealing with (and used to dealing with) grogs though. If you address the above complaints and (for example) release a 'bundle' of all titles in an epoch with the most up to date engine, they'll complain that there are some features from another epoch (eastern front) that aren't in there. And if you somehow put in the herculean effort necessary to bundle the whole lot together into a unified Eurpoean WWII release of every formation, unit and vehicle used at any point in the war, someone will complain that the only horse breeds you've modelled are Russian Draft, Wuerttemburger and Westpahlian, and they've got photos proving that Spanish Mustangs were used by some units.

[Lt Belenko]

Will the CMAK version be a Epoch or a Family under Western Front?

[Jonny(FGM)]

We plan on having three Epochs in development concurrently (i.e. all at the same time). These are:

Modern

Western Front

Eastern Front

uhhh.......

I don't think there will be any NA/Italy titles judging from that.

[Ron]

The possible point of concern that some people have here is that the engine will continue to develop. What if in the Bulge title there are some wonderful new features (UI changes, tweaks to tacAI behaviour, noticable improvements iin the modelling of some areas) that make the game significantly different / better to play? Then you don't have a simple choice of picking a game based on timeframe. You might want a battle in August 1944, but really want some modelling features and the UI from the Bulge title.

Isn't that almost always the case with software though? It will continue to develop and leave previous versions behind? Perhaps the real point of concern is the perception that somehow BFC is obligated to include the whole show in one package and if they don't then they are 'taking advantage of the poor customer' or somesuch, ironically it's something BFC has been pointedly clear about since the beginning. If a gamer wants some new feature or UI or modelling aspect from a new Family of games, then gosh-darn-it he will just have to slap down that CC and buy it.

[Muddy boots]

I really can't wait for the Arnhem module, I've only just read the first post and already I'm as excited as a small puppy! I'm very familiar with the sequence of events at Arnhem and the ground itself...any room for a spare beta-tester?

[Sgt Joch]

uhhh.......

I don't think there will be any NA/Italy titles judging from that.

Its not on the drawing board now, but I am hoping we will eventually get North Africa 1940-43. It did not work very well in CMAK, mostly because of borg spotting, but would be great under the CMx2 system.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Its not on the drawing board now, but I am hoping we will eventually get North Africa 1940-43. It did not work very well in CMAK, mostly because of borg spotting, but would be great under the CMx2 system.

A huge +1 to this!

[Elmar Bijlsma]

A moderate size +1.

Though I fear the worst.

[mike_the_wino]

....3rd Module will be a sort of mix-mosh of stuff not covered in the base Game or the first two Modules.

By the time the Normandy Family is complete, you should be able to recreate any battle within that timeframe. Well, within reason of course

Steve

That's what I am talking about!.....except for the whole 'within reason of course'. Reason is really so limiting. So constricting. So damn...well, reasoned.