RAMADI (Iraq): Mother of All MOUT Maps

[LongLeftFlank]

5 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Love what you are doing and really appreciate the detailed descriptions.....The current map looks narrower north-south than the version from the repository? 

This is a long thin submap roughly, covering the northeast quadrant of my master. I decided not to extend it north but did push it a couple hundred meters further east along Route Michigan, a stretch of road that saw considerable (ambush) action.

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Cheers.....As you know I'm tinkering with a very small section of the repository variant for use as part of East Mosul, have to say I'm fully in agreement with Combatintman regarding the intricacy & sheer complexity of your map.  

I've followed the general pattern of your 'dense low-income urban' areas in order to replace the equivalent of about two blocks in the north-west and added some open ground and a few compounds where the cemetery once was.....This has taken me over a week and your bits are still visibly better! 

Edited March 19, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[LongLeftFlank]

4 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Cheers.....As you know I'm tinkering with a very small section of the repository variant for use as part of East Mosul, have to say I'm fully in agreement with Combatintman regarding the intricacy & sheer complexity of your map.  

I've followed the general pattern of your 'dense low-income urban' areas in order to replace the equivalent of about two blocks in the north-west and added some open ground and a few compounds where the cemetery once was.....This has taken me over a week and your bits are still visibly better! 

Good luck on the Mosul project. A few thoughts:

1. For buildings, the key tactical elements are: (a) for security and privacy, pretty much all houses and most commercial offices as well together with their parking areas, sit inside high walled compounds with a single entrance; (b) except for shopfronts,  there are pretty much no ground floor windows facing directly onto public streets; (c) respect your players: if you build a single building using multiple tiles, be sure to show it by matching the paint jobs and window framing. Also make sure the interior doors match up to prevent pixeltruppen rushing out suicidally around the block when all you intended was to move them elsewhere in the same house.

My Ramadi map won't look quite right btw unless you use my 3 additional building textures: Shopfront, collonaded mosque and ruins. If you don't use them it will pick at random. PM me if you have trouble finding them.

2. Mosul is a very ancient city although it's also grown substantially, so keep in mind nearly all of my Ramadi map is an area built in the late 20th century. Medieval rabbit warrens of piled up mud houses, tiny alleys and courtyarded havelis are a completely different animal tactically. In fact, I don't think any force would be stupid enough to attack into such a district if it was held by armed men who knew it.

3. I am hardly an expert but Mosul is a good bit more hilly than pooltable flat central Ramadi (or Fallujah), although there are certainly flat portions. Adding terrain undulations will give a very distinctive feel to this map with limited effort. But it will also likely play holy hell with framerates (the master map wasn't intended to be played full size in any case). I wouldn't even attempt this on my 2006 vintage Dell Latitude!

I also think there are a lot more deciduous trees, gardens and tree lined streets in Mosul than in Ramadi owing to the higher elevation and higher precip. But take a look at some YouTube footage and decide for yourself. Note that only certain ground types will show trees on the map even if you've placed them in the editor.

Cheers, LLF

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Many thanks for the always welcome advice. 

I'd kind of picked up on point one by studying your mapping technique, in fact that was what blew me away about your Ramadi map when I first properly examined it.....Everything looks random & organic but none of it is, it's all been very carefully designed.  I'm now very fastidious about my buildings, in fact it's this process that has most delayed my CM:A campaign.

I've chosen to loosely represent a very small section of Mosul, approximately here:  https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@36.3453134,43.2224531,890m/data=!3m1!1e3

I actually only chose this area because it seemed the most suitable for adapting your map.  Combatintman had advised me that Mosul is a little 'greener' than Ramadi, so I'm currently making efforts along those lines, palm-lined streets in particular seem quite popular.  The terrain elevation is something I will probably have to largely ignore, however the area I'm representing is so small that I think I can get away with it.  My current PC is a bit of a monster (it will run several Ramadi's at once) so I sometimes forget that other people have issues with complex maps, I've cut the section of map that will be used down to 688x320m so I hope there won't be any issues there.

My premise is a series of semi-fictional (to use CMx1 terms) scenarios attempting to capture the overall 'feel' of the Mosul campaign rather than attempting to closely model any specific engagement within it.  I simply don't have the time & patience or the resources required to work to the level of historical detail that Combatintman or yourself achieve, but I do like to think that I write reasonably playable & entertaining scenarios.  Provisionally I'm using three maps, one rural, one semi-urban and one dense-urban (yours), with perhaps three scenarios per map, the player will control a Core force from the Iraqi CTS modelled using Syrian SF with US & Canadian vehicles (thanks to Combatintman here too). 

Edited March 19, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[LongLeftFlank]

14 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

(sorry, as previously noted this BBS system does not work well with my Android device). I know you're aiming at a fun game and strictly fictional. But as I look at the imagery I say to myself: why here? Why does ISIS want to turn this particular neighborhood into Stalingrad? What do the long suffering residents think of that idea? If I was them I'd be pointing out their hidden strongpoints and IEDs/mines to the IA.

In the case of Ramadi the populace fully supported the resistance, who were mainly homeboys... at least until 2005 when Zarqawi's fanatics started killing tribal sheiks and cooking off giant size IEDs next to schools and shops to defeat the heavier US vehicles. But I think you get my meaning: the backstory, even if partly fictional, has tactical implications and ought to cohere. Otherwise this is World of Tanks.

Here endeth the lesson.... 

[LongLeftFlank]

Also, I don't know if you ever ran across this, but in 2012 I did a Red SF v Uncon Syrian semihistorical Civil War engagement for which I modified a submap of Ramadi to create a denser, more "high rise" neighborhood in Homs. A lot more of a Stalingrad fight here, though rebels are very badly outgunned... 

This is the link to the scenario itself; there's also a link to a design and playtest thread. (Speaking of which, where's SBurke, the other CMSF loyalist who haunts these deserted halls? Hope he's ok and the cesspoolers haven't abducted him or sumfink)

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Your points are duly noted.....However this whole project is aimed more toward light entertainment and AI script writing practice than historical accuracy.  Fear not though, my scenarios on your map will be of a much lower intensity than Stalingrad and hopefully the locals will indeed become a factor too. 

The total Core force consists of six CTF platoons, three tanks and a platoon of SEAL advisors (plus some friendly locals, including a top notch sniper), to be spread over three maps and up to nine scenarios (& I don't really do replacements), so a platoon or two of CTS with some air/artillery/armour support and a fistful of friendly locals is likely to be the size of the typical force.  As for why the CTS are there, this area lies just to the north of one of the major routes toward the Tigris, I'm assuming the CTS would want to sweep the area in order to clear their flanks.

I have indeed discovered your Baba Amr scenario.....I did have a brief look at trying to write AI scripts for that one too, just for the challenge, but sadly it defeated me. 

PS - I even managed to sneak a few contour lines onto your map without breaking it! 

Edited March 20, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[LongLeftFlank]

Great, I look forward to seeing it released, although I probably can't do more than browse the map. In any case, I have noticed though that Tiny/Small scenarios playable in a single evening have a much bigger audience than monster fights, at least based on DL count. Not that that always matters of course.... 

Here's the unbroken links to the Baba Amr discussions btw in case others are interested. 

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I wasn't aware that it had a thread here, I found it in the repository and.....Well once you've seen that map you don't forget it in a hurry. 

This is partly why I've not tried to modify your map beyond the strictly necessary, it's almost pointless to attempt to do so as your work is so unique and so distinctive that most CM:SF players would recognise it instantly regardless.  So I've used gamer's license to bend a rotten war to fit a righteous map, call me a dreamer if you will. 

Edited March 20, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[LongLeftFlank]

Hey, I'm just pleased somebody else is getting mileage out of my mapwork! 

I also just realized that Wikileaks provides official AARs for every incident that went on in Iraq, including map coordinates....

https://wikileaks.org/irq/report/2004/07/IRQ20040714n468.html

So guess what? Turns out I need that extra 100m north after all. Will try to crank it out tonight.

[sburke]

9 hours ago, LongLeftFlank said:

Also, I don't know if you ever ran across this, but in 2012 I did a Red SF v Uncon Syrian semihistorical Civil War engagement for which I modified a submap of Ramadi to create a denser, more "high rise" neighborhood in Homs. A lot more of a Stalingrad fight here, though rebels are very badly outgunned... 

This is the link to the scenario itself; there's also a link to a design and playtest thread. (Speaking of which, where's SBurke, the other CMSF loyalist who haunts these deserted halls? Hope he's ok and the cesspoolers haven't abducted him or sumfink)

 

Avidly reading this and looking for that map update.  What i am really looking forward to is the CMSF 2 update. Not sure when BF will get to that, but afaik it is still on the list to do. 

[LongLeftFlank]

Well Sir Knight, get a cesspooler mob together, with torches and pitchforks and march on Vermont!  It's the thing to do these days, it seems.  I suspect though you'll need to first use a pitchfork to prod those lazy brutes to bestir themselves.  And when did you dotards last change that thread of yours? -- it stinks all the way over here! Even the CMA folks are complaining, and overcoming the stench of goat dung takes some doing, believe me.

Anyway, as you can see from this view down the master map, adding 50meters to the north edge opens up the dusty battlespace in the industrial area, and also gives the player a limited (long left) flanking option as an alternative to slugging it down IED-infested Route Michigan....

The master map dimensions are now 1776m E-W by 680m N-S.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

That Wikileaks list is going to be a godsend to gamers. 

[LongLeftFlank]

In a perfect world, yes indeed. But I don't see a large confraternity of OCD loons developing historical scenarios. Reality is, most CMers want tank fights. Nothing wrong with that of course, but there's only so many historical 73 Eastings and most are lopsided turkey shoots.

[Combatintman]

It is a truism though that there is more information at a level of detail to be useful to scenario designers on both the Afghan and Iraq campaigns coming out these days.  I just wish I had the time to knock out the maps to do them justice.  Bring on CMSF2 and the map overlay feature. I'm currently slogging through an Iraq map and two Afghan maps with another on the 'to do' list.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I am absolutely convinced that asymmetrical warfare scenarios are the most entertaining, they present a whole new range of challenges to the both the designer & the player. 

Plus blowing 'headchoppers' to pieces feels righteous! 

 

Edited March 21, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Erwin]

I know I am beating  dead horse here, but that's why I have been surprised that no Mosul scenarios were done so far.  The JOKER scenario on the Ramadi map was intensely entertaining and I figured that Mosul would be like that but with more units - with elements from Iraqi Army, Kurds, "Iranians" etc etc, along with a few Crack or Elite US forces.

RE LLF's point: "...most CMers want tank fights... lopsided turkey shoots." is a bit misleading.  Gamers don't want "walkovers" but challenging scenarios that feature mobility and AFV's cos those are fun features.  While there may be a place and demand for historical simulation, designers shouldn't get hung up on only wanting to do strictly historical situations. Most players want to have a fun challenging game with verisimilitude - which is not all the same as "historical".

[LongLeftFlank]

Well there are - or used to be - plenty of designers out there putting together "semi-historical" scenarios for the various CMx2 games. I've tried to play so many scenarios and one after another quit them saying "this just feels off". They may be brilliant as games but they don't scratch my particular itch.

Like Combatintman, I choose to go full historical. Just my particular thing. I don't really "game" as such. Think of this as a 3d extension of historical reading, putting me in the boots of the tactical leaders. I want to face what they faced, within the constraints of the tools available. And in any case, it's a satisfying diversion from work and family life.

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I'd like to strike a balance between the two.....If someone with LLF or Combatintman's level of knowledge on this subject tells me I'm wrong I'll accept it and try to bend my scenario to fit the reality as best as possible, I do that with maps too! 

I think my Mosul variant is pretty much finished, bar the flavour objects and a bit more foliage.....I needed a break from the desert (Sand, sand nothing but ******* sand!) so I've also been messing around in Trumpton for CM:BS too (Now there's a scenario where I can really let my imagination roam!  ).

PS - Interesting comment about your not gaming LLF, I come to all this from an old school modelling/wargaming background.  I'm fairly particular about accuracy in even my wargaming models (borderline pathological in some of my display stuff), but I also still build generic units (I obscure all those inconvenient marking locations with stowage or mud) and write generic scenarios.

PPS - Erwin, dude, this stuff takes time, especially to the level of detail LLF/Combatintman work to, it's nothing like the old games, especially if you are scripting the AI in a complex environment.....If you've started my CM:A mission you'll probably be involved in a fairly major scuffle for the TV Station, persuading the majority of the pixeltruppen not to attack by charging straight down the middle of the street took absolutely ages, and some of them still do it, lots of them on occasion! 

Edited March 21, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[TheForwardObserver]

I don't have CMSF but just want to say I really dig that Ramadi map.  I spent most of 2006 and 2007 stomping around in Anbar based out of Camp Fallujah then Camp Taqqadum after the surge, but never made it to Ramadi proper (west limit was Habbaniyah, north was Tharthar and east was Zaidon).  So I imagine it's quite like a less damaged Fallujah with fewer minarets, in which case, spot on.  I look at that map and can practically smell the pungent aroma of Anbar from Minnesota.  

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Incidentally LLF it turns out that, purely by chance and because it looked doable using your map, I have inadvertently picked the epicentre of the advance into East Mosul.....Things first kick off in this area around November 2-3, half the map is under Iraqi control the next day, but over the course of the next fortnight ISIS appear out of their tunnels and the whole neighbourhood is back in their hands by the 17th! 

https://isis.liveuamap.com/en/time/02.11.2016

https://isis.liveuamap.com/en/time/17.11.2016

(Look for Hayy al Karamah on the map)

Still researching, but how's that for providence smiling! 

PS - It looks like one of the big compounds I had to add may be the local TV Station.....Blowing those up is a hobby of mine.   

Edited March 22, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[LongLeftFlank]

12 hours ago, TheForwardObserver said:

I don't have CMSF but just want to say I really dig that Ramadi map.  I spent most of 2006 and 2007 stomping around in Anbar based out of Camp Fallujah then Camp Taqqadum after the surge, but never made it to Ramadi proper (west limit was Habbaniyah, north was Tharthar and east was Zaidon).  So I imagine it's quite like a less damaged Fallujah with fewer minarets, in which case, spot on.  I look at that map and can practically smell the pungent aroma of Anbar from Minnesota.  

You do me honour, truly. I am not a vet, and I'm doing this for my own reasons, but as I research I become keenly aware that even a decade later, fine people still wear the scars of that place. I recently ran across this 2/4 Weapons vet trying hard to work out what it all meant, in 2016:  https://ramadibastards.wordpress.com/

He was even in the 2/4 action I am working on, but just read his gunner's level view.  No game can ever replicate these feelings of terror, confusion and... indifference?  I hope he writes his book.

https://ramadibastards.wordpress.com/2016/07/28/post-7-op-hotel/

I’m not sure if there were actually insurgents in OP Hotel. I’m not sure if that building was called OP Hotel [it was].... So here it is. Me taking a picture like a retard when I should have been pulling my trigger, shooting at nothing like a good Marine.

I’m starting to realize that **** like this isn’t just a desperate grasp at historical immortality. I think there’s something pure and honest about wanting to be remembered…just a little. Or a lot.

Semper fi, sergeant.  One day I will find time to set that lame Wikipedia entry to rights, as my homage to the vets, and the citizens. Maybe it won't really help anyone who was there answer Why, but I have 120 pages of detailed chrono notes from 2003-2007, well footnoted, giving accounts from generals to grunts.  It wasn't random, it just largely seemed that way at the pointy end....

 

 

 

Edited March 22, 2017 by LongLeftFlank

[LongLeftFlank]

On 6/20/2010 at 2:26 AM, LongLeftFlank said:

And here's another shot of the IP commandos in action, with a US Army adviser (1/506 Airborne). That rubble and blown away walls in the background were pretty typical along the main boulevards by 2006. Half of the damage was from indiscriminate IED bombing (with the insurgents resorting to bigger and bigger calibre shells as the US vehicles became more heavily armoured) which also ruptured the sewer lines creating huge pools of filth in the streets. The other half was caused by US forces riddling insurgent ambush positions, real or imagined, with huge volumes of small arms fire, and less commonly, with autocannon or tank fire, SMAWS/Javelins, mortars and aerial bombs or Hellfires.

 

However, most of the rest of the city remained largely unscathed except for 3 years of 350,000 people's garbage not being removed regularly. Ramadi was not Fallujah.

 

 

Curse you, SGT Slaughter (showing my age there), you're pulling me away from Ramadi ;-)

As I browse those IWF links I kindly dug up for you on the battle for Mosul, and then click through the embedded links to the Arab language source media (lotsa photos, but be ready to get put on a NSA watchlist), I notice that a lot of the ISF units don't wear standard jundi drab, but rather the police commando blue camou that Ryujin was kind enough to work up for me before I changed my mind and decided on plain blue police tunic.  You'd need to lose the IP armband, but otherwise good to go!   The uniform mod should be somewhere around.... obviously, it mods CMSF Syrian Special Forces.

Oh, and here's the operational map for day 1 of the long hard fight that lies ahead.  As I advised though, you should probably start your own Mosul 2016 thread so's I can get back to the ancient history of USMC Ramadi.

http://www.understandingwar.org/sites/default/files/Mosul City Campaign Nov 3 PDF reduced.pdf

....OK, I'm starting to get it now.

http://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/campaign-mosul-november-16-21-2016

The likely attrition of the CTS is extremely dangerous for the Mosul operation; the CTS is the most elite unit in the ISF and the only one with sufficient training in urban warfare. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/iraq-has-never-seen-this-kind-of-fighting-in-its-battles-with-isis/2016/11/11/96af671e-a524-11e6-ba46-53db57f0e351_story.html?utm_term=.cf0b5d119065

It was one of six neighborhoods that the elite units stormed Nov. 4, on a day that was initially trumpeted as a success before it became clear that their early gains were not sustainable. After pushing forward with relatively little resistance, the forces were ambushed and cut off. A CNN team was trapped with them and surrounded for more than 24 hours after their convoy was attacked.

The house shook as a pickup truck full of explosives rammed into a convoy of Iraqi security forces nearby, scattering debris and body parts onto the street. Iraqi forces have little time to react, let alone call in airstrikes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/11/05/these-images-show-how-islamic-state-forces-have-dug-in-for-a-fight-in-mosul/?tid=a_inl&utm_term=.4eaf351afccd

 

 

Edited March 24, 2017 by LongLeftFlank

[Erwin]

My only amazement is the "Iraq has never seen this kind of fighting in its battles with ISIS" article re how the Iraqi army is suffering - which must be one of the most easily predictable events in modern warfare. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Some of those reports make for harrowing reading.....Poor Mosul. 

Thanks for your continuing help LLF, it really is massively appreciated.....I'll open a separate thread for Mosul now and leave you and Ramadi in peace. (Hmmmm.....Probably not quite the right word, but you know what I mean!  )

PS - Thanks especially for the mod tip, that would work perfectly with my Core Force, which as you know are Syrian SF.....Are black Humvees available anywhere by any chance?

Edited March 24, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead