How do you button up the troops in the back of strykers?

[Eagle2]

Is there a way you can button up the troops that stick their heads out of the back of the strykers? I'm sick of watching them get picked off by snipers and HMG gunners, and I've tried everything I can thing of to button them up, but it doesn't seem to work.

[Chainsaw]

nopp. cant do unfortunly.

[MikeyD]

I believe the thought was if the enemy's close enough for small arms fire they're close enough to fire RPGs too so Stryker needs those eyes to the rear. I had argued awhile ago for Humvees under fire to button but vets on the board insisted that the humvee MG station HAD to stay manned come hell or high water. I guess the same applies to Stryker.

An argument could be made that Marine LAVs should have the same unbuttoned rear guard as Stryker. I'm not too sure why they didn't. It might've been a game engine thing, to many people sharing the a single 'unbutton' command.

[souldierz]

I believe the thought was if the enemy's close enough for small arms fire they're close enough to fire RPGs too so Stryker needs those eyes to the rear. I had argued awhile ago for Humvees under fire to button but vets on the board insisted that the Humvee MG station HAD to stay manned come hell or high water. I guess the same applies to Stryker.

I heard this to, that the main gun and firing positions is to be manned no matter what in high intense situations.If the gunner is shot,someone else is ordered to man it,and if hes shot, someone else gets the order to jump in the hot seat and so on.

I can only imaging how one would feel when he's told to man the 50, knowing the s*** is gonna hit the fan at close range like in "Blackhawk Down" for example.Man i feel for those guys who find themselves in that situation, that's true bravery, jumping into a position knowing it's going to get you killed, but yet that position needs to be occupied if the battle is to be won, so what do they do, they step up and occupy it and get killed in hopes it wins their side the battle.

Is war insane or what?

Best way to keep the men out of those Stryker slots in the rear is to dismount them.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I can only imaging how one would feel when he's told to man the 50, knowing the s*** is gonna hit the fan at close range like in "Blackhawk Down" for example.Man i feel for those guys who find themselves in that situation, that's true bravery, jumping into a position knowing it's going to get you killed, but yet that position needs to be occupied if the battle is to be won, so what do they do, they step up and occupy it and get killed in hopes it wins their side the battle.

Is war insane or what?

Not quite. Getting up in the .50 improves the guy's survival chances.

In "**** hit the fan" situations you should consider the .50 a fan cleaning device. A .50 firing is something that will discourage most attackers from doing their thing.

[Eagle2]

This is where I have to disagree with you. There are many accounts of soldiers ducking into the stryker during intense fire fights. And my main concern is at the longer ranges. Say, for instance, I'm assaulting and enemy ridgeline. I move one platoon and set up a base of fire with my squads dismounted. With my second platoon I go on a wide flanking manuever when suddenly a quick burst from a PKM hits one of my guys up in the hatch. It doesn't make sense to have them up and about providing "rear security" in the middle of an open desert or field. I just want to have the ability to give my soldiers cover in situations like this :mad:

[Sivodsi]

This is where I have to disagree with you. There are many accounts of soldiers ducking into the stryker during intense fire fights.

Should there be some sort of morale calculation involved then? When the occupants of the fired upon humvee/stryker get 'rattled' or worse they duck down. Otherwise, according to doctrine they are up and exposed as targets.

Er, maybe this already happens? Haven't played with these units for a little while now...

Getting up in the .50 improves the guy's survival chances... A .50 firing is something that will discourage most attackers from doing their thing.

Only if he is firing in the right direction, eh? Otherwise he is just another target.

Also, in urban settings at least the gunner's chances of spotting the enemy fire before they shoot him would be somewhat lower, making the 50 cal's use as a "cleaning device" of limited value, not to mention the collateral damage involved when 'hosing down' all suspected positions...

But I'm speaking here with no actual experience in the matter (in other words out of my a**e).

[Eagle2]

Should there be some sort of morale calculation involved then? When the occupants of the fired upon humvee/stryker get 'rattled' or worse they duck down. Otherwise, according to doctrine they are up and exposed as targets.

Er, maybe this already happens? Haven't played with these units for a little while now...

I'm pretty sure it doesn't happen. You'd think after getting their buddies brains splattered all over them they'd get their ass down, but apparantly not.

[LukeFF]

Not only were we taught to keep the .50 manned in a HMMWV (I was in Iraq in 2004-05), but all the other occupants in the vehicle were to return fire with their small arms. So, in a way, the defensive fire of a HMMWV in the game is under-modeled.

[Eagle2]

Good point, I also think the HMMWV should have passenger fire modeled. But a HMMWV and a Stryker are two different beasts. At least in the Stryker you can get your head down.

[hoolaman]

Gunners popping up and dying is a serious problem for me in CMSf. Even when they should pop up they expose themselves a lot, the 3D model is exposed so they die quickly.

But many gunners such as .50 cal gunners on Humvees and those recon strykers, pop up under real withering fire, the sort that should have them being suppressed or cowering in some way. Popping up somtimes is suicide, and I don't think intentionally getting blown away is a good way to keep the .50 cal manned.

Similarly I have a big problem with BMP commanders trying to fire their external missiles at every opportunity. These guys are almost always popped up in the turret if the vehicle is stationary, and I usually end up with a field of BMPs with ok drivers, dead commanders and nobody to fire any of the weapons.

[MikeyD]

I wonder what the doctrinal difference is between a 'hot war' and a 'occupation patrol' situation (also sometimes very hot too). The fact that your Strykers are recieving incoming might be your cue to disembark in a 'hot war' context. If the enemy on that far hill has a DShK they may just as likely have an ATGM launcher too. Everybody together in the same steel box would be a bad idea. The current conflicts I can't recall the last time a long range AGTM attack was reported.

[Ryujin]

Gunners popping up and dying is a serious problem for me in CMSf. Even when they should pop up they expose themselves a lot, the 3D model is exposed so they die quickly.

I think this is the main problem. When there is 1 to 1 ballistics, you can't have gunner way over exposed when taking incoming fire, they'll just get cut down. I'd imagine the HMMWV gunners would stand a much better chance if they just used those gun shields and didn't stand up behind it (they'd be a tiny target from the front). Same could go for anyone else who can turn out, they really shouldn't expose more of themselves than they need to, but the crews/troops in CMSF seem quite happy to make a nice silhouette target standing up in the hatch. If they don't get new animations, they could at least use some abstracted cover to compensate for their Rambo tendencies.

[LongLeftFlank]

I agree that the HMMWV gunners seem a little TOO vulnerable. But it's best to use HMMWVs in overwatch at stand-off range when engaging infantry, which is also realistic.

These aren't the guntrucks most Iraq vets are familiar with (I wish those were available in the game, but they ain't).

[Eagle2]

I wonder what the doctrinal difference is between a 'hot war' and a 'occupation patrol' situation (also sometimes very hot too). The fact that your Strykers are recieving incoming might be your cue to disembark in a 'hot war' context. If the enemy on that far hill has a DShK they may just as likely have an ATGM launcher too. Everybody together in the same steel box would be a bad idea. The current conflicts I can't recall the last time a long range AGTM attack was reported.

You have a good point, but basing the entire game engine on an assumption is kinda foolish in my book. Just earlier today I lost two of my men from an errant airburst artillery shell that landed about 20 feet away but still managed to take both of them out. They were just sitting in the open desert waitinig for the bradley platoon to take the crossroads, and out of nowhere that lone artillery shot wiped out a team leader and my marksman. There was no tactical purpose for their heads to be popped out, and as a result two men died. I really hope this will be fixed in the next patch, but I'm not holding my breath.

[MeatEtr]

Similarly I have a big problem with BMP commanders trying to fire their external missiles at every opportunity. These guys are almost always popped up in the turret if the vehicle is stationary, and I usually end up with a field of BMPs with ok drivers, dead commanders and nobody to fire any of the weapons.

Hehe, and it appears your BMP numbers are dwindling down in our battle.

(Sorry Jeff, couldn't resist!)

[hoolaman]

Yeah thanks

I'm not licked yet. Some of my remaining BMPs may even have gunners

[Sheppy]

do any of the other vehicles in the game have infantry firing from them?

[Eagle2]

do any of the other vehicles in the game have infantry firing from them?

I'm pretty sure there isn't. At least I haven't run into any yet.

[snake_eye]

To ride unbuttoned is the best way to stay alive despite the fact that you are drawing fire. The 50 cal is a lethal weapon and high cyclic, so you can pour down suppressive fire and hopefully pin down some of the aggressors, while speeding out of the danger area.

As a matter of fact, what they teach you in case of an ambush is not to duck down and freak, but to return aggressive fire and move while firing toward the ambushed shooters. better taught than done however.

The only sensible reason to duck down and button down is when airburst or HP shells are delivered

Cheers

[Eagle2]

To ride unbuttoned is the best way to stay alive despite the fact that you are drawing fire. The 50 cal is a lethal weapon and high cyclic, so you can pour down suppressive fire and hopefully pin down some of the aggressors, while speeding out of the danger area.

As a matter of fact, what they teach you in case of an ambush is not to duck down and freak, but to return aggressive fire and move while firing toward the ambushed shooters. better taught than done however.

The only sensible reason to duck down and button down is when airburst or HP shells are delivered

Cheers

I totally agree with you there. But a soldier manning a .50 cal and two guys popping out of the back of a stryker firing m-16's isn't very effective. And it's not like I don't find the soldiers in the back useful, I just want to option to be able to have them button up when need be.

[snake_eye]

I totally agree with you there. But a soldier manning a .50 cal and two guys popping out of the back of a stryker firing m-16's isn't very effective. And it's not like I don't find the soldiers in the back useful, I just want to option to be able to have them button up when need be.

I thought that there was a key order OPEN UP that was meant for that. With it, the hatches were left open and one guy could use the 50. Cal while 2 others were riding air (and back) security at the rear. That is what I saw in effect with the Stryker in the game.

The key is a toggle one. OPEN UP either open or close the hatches depending on the last order that had been given. That means that you really know what is going on, when you look at the Stryker, that is not very practical while combat managing.

I have not used any other order to button up besides that one.

Cheers

[Jonny(FGM)]

This video shows how dangerous it can be to be a gunner in a humvee.

I try to blast through this ambush at top speed, i end up losing 3 men as they desperately try to man the .50 cal, one poor guy barely even gets his head out of the hatch before it gets blown off

[Dietrich]

Yeah, my experience with that scenario ("3:10 to Yuma", right?) is that I lose as many as a third of my guys just trying to make it to the police station, especially if I have the humvees unbuttoned. As far as I can make out, this is for several reasons:

1. A humvee gunner is rather exposed, even when the weapon mount shield is between him and the incoming fire. (Compare this with the wraparound protection that humvee gunners enjoy nowadays; and the amount of fire they typically receive is rather less than in any given CMSF scenario.)

2. Going medium speed or slower in this scenario means risking an even greater degree of effective fire, including RPGs. But the faster a humvee goes (as far as I can tell), the less capable the pixeltruppen riding therein are of spotting enemy units. And the faster a humvee goes, the less capable the gunner is of bringing effective fire to bear on enemy units, both because of the aim-spoiling effect of the vehicle's movement and because of the weapon mount's traverse rate.

3. Most of the uncon Red units are stationary in the first phase of the scenario (driving along the road to the police station), and they're able to bring fairly effective fire on the humvees from multiple directions simultaneously.

4. If a vehicle has to make a course correction of more than about 30 degrees, it slows to a crawl, and its vulnerability to fire increases exponentially. In this scenario, I take great care with each humvee's waypoints so they can maintain relatively high speed as they progress along the movement path. I've lost many a humvee (and the pixeltruppen riding in them) around that hairpin turn at the corner of the field. :-/

[Jonny(FGM)]

I think you've got it about spot on there Dietrich

First time i ran this through i gave up after 3 minutes as i only had movement orders to halfway down the road and as a result my whole convoy ended up sitting in the middle of the ambush. I redid it again and just gave them fast orders all the way to the police station. I managed not to lose any humvees though, just the men in the gunners seats.

Later on i managed to lose most of the humvees and almost the entire delta force and police contingent in the battle, the cavalry arrived late for me