Infantry

[Tartari]

Maybe not you, Arzock, but me, for sure!

[molotov_billy]

But dont take my psot as putting the game down, because this is my favorite war game. Ive played the Kursk demo and think its great. Infantry AI has improved a little, but as far as the demo is concerned its still the same as ToW2Africa

You've played a Kursk demo? Where is it available?

[Knokke]

The russian demo is available since a few month back. I don't remember the link, but searching this forum will give you the answer. You can also find files to translate the demo to english.

[Piecekeeper]

I just hope that the AI for infantry has been improved since the russian demo.

[Buzzi]

You've played a Kursk demo? Where is it available?

look here :

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=88186&page=4

[MG TOW]

Infantry vs infantry I think the kill ratio is pretty realistic in the game TOW2. Whether you are hit in the thigh, arm, or gut with a 7.92 mauser its all the same result...combat ineffective.

Where the infantry kill ratio is exagerated is Tank vs Infantry perhaps

[Marata]

I also tried the Russian demo and my impression was that there are some serious issues concerning spotting and accuracy (in an otherwise excellent game).

I had situations where my infantry went from crawling (undetected) to sprinting upright and was killed *instantly* by rifle and mg fire - from 700 meters distance and through several patches of woods! The enemy infantry didn't even need time for spotting and acquiring their targets.

Sometimes spotting seems to be ridiculously easy (like in the above case or when entrenched guns that didn't open fire at you are already spotted from long range) and at other times frustratingly difficult (when you are lucky if an anti-tank gun continuously firing at you and taking out your tanks is at least marked as a sound contact).

Infantry survival was so bad in the demo (even when positioned in trenches) that i mainly used them as expendable spotting teams and spare crew for anti-tank guns.

Hopefully these problems can be addressed, but since they were already present in TOW2 I am a bit sceptical.

[prlugo]

I agree with many points in this thread.

1 Better AI : Infantry should stop "attack" or "storm" more easily and in automatic if there are too many casualties and wounded. "Stop attack" means that men don't advance , they take cover and fire from a secure position. In this situation if they take more casualties they can start to retreat slowly keeping firing. More casualties : they can route to your first secure and covered position (this could be a bit dificult). All this would be related to morale , experience and officers.

2 Better cover , entrenchment and sand bags "power" . A soldier lying down should be much less visible ( expecially for tanks ) and more protected from explosions and fire . Entrenchment cover and sand bags should boost morale and defence more than now (it's too easy to clean enemy defence position) . Bunkers should be more resistent against artillery, tanks and aviation ( quite indistructibles ) . Bunkers were often "cleaned" (sorry) by infantry.

3 Sniper question : snipers are overpowered . they are a bit too accurate and defenders are too "stupid" to take cover.

4 Artillery is too vulnerable against howitzers and snipers also if entrenched. howitzers are too accurate and artillery crew is blocked in their positions . They should take cover in near trenches( maybe with a command or in automatic ) if under howitzer fire or if attacked by a sniper and quikly return to the gun if tanks are sighted or under a magior infantry attack. ( also the Kamikaze officer ).

5 In the game trenches, bunkers sand bags position are known so the artillery , aviation work is too easy. They should appear and disappear like units if not in sight.

I know some point are hard to realize but this is my idea to improve infantry.

P.S. Can you release a guide to mod infantry. Or only a plugin for 3dsmax to export infantry models in msh format?

P.S. Sorry for my english

[AslakH]

The infantry in the russian demo got me thinking.

I can play one of the german missions without any casualties from enemy fire. Not a single soldier, tank, SP gun, etc.

But after taking the trenches, my own infantry keep killing their own squadmates!

They shoot them in the back, or downright figdet about in front of my men until they get shot. Because the enemy is in that general direction, the SL will just blast away with his MP40, killing one after the other. Or they will throw, nay, drop a grenade at their own feet, and just sit there, quietly awaiting death.

This is not a kind game for the infantry. If there are tanks about, I never use infantry in TOW. They just get killed. Not unlike lemmings!

But, TOW is a good series. Many say that CC is superior, etc. but I think TOW and CC can coexist! They are not the same game, and nor do they claim to be. I have had my rants against TOW and BFC, but truth be told BFC has given me good games since I first bought CMBO when it came out. I wouldn't worry.

ToW2:Kursk will be just as good as the others, perhaps better since we get mortars and Marders!

[WillyPete2171]

But, TOW is a good series. Many say that CC is superior, etc. but I think TOW and CC can coexist! They are not the same game, and nor do they claim to be. I have had my rants against TOW and BFC, but truth be told BFC has given me good games since I first bought CMBO when it came out. I wouldn't worry.

ToW2:Kursk will be just as good as the others, perhaps better since we get mortars and Marders!

[AslakH]

I didn't notice any difference other than the language.

I know people have said it before, but:

If you double-click a soldier, you select his whole squad.

I've played CC since about 1999/2000, and I am still playing it!

Just so easy to like.

[Piecekeeper]

I've noticed that the smoke button for infantry doesn't seem to work. It seems that the only way is to do it manually with "ground attack" and choosing the smoke grenade in the inventory.

[Narses]

Exactly my problem with TOW in all versions. I hate the naming of each soldier - just too much detail unless your a squad leader.

And the names are sometimes hilariously funny.

[molotov_billy]

I don't know what to do with infantry. None of the scenarios that I've played would have resulted in a different outcome had there been no infantry in the mission at all.

I feel like this game is largely an AT Gun/Tank game with infantry being not much more than background noise. Even a large gust of wind seems to knock out half my troops when I'm not looking.

All the more strange is how much detailed info is given to individual soldiers, skills, etc, and yet they serve no purpose in a typical battle. I could care less if some individual's "spotting skill" goes from 20 to 25 in between a mission when their overall chance of survival is nil.

What's going on over at 1C? How does this bizarre stuff get shipped again and again without iteration or improvement? What am I supposed to be doing with these infantry slots?

[Knokke]

About infantry:

Since I've discovered (thanks to Sneaksie) that there was more than the two obvious ways (move button and assault button) to give the order to move to an infantry squad , I've found there was a lot of improvement in the number of my soldiers who survive an engagement: selecting the squad and clicking the fire button, then clicking on a spot on the ground where you want your squad to move is the way to go. Before, I was using the assault button instead, and the little pixel soldiers would die more easily. Assault button should be used only to do a short rush toward an ennemy position, because your guys will try to get there as fast as they can, throwing caution away. Using the fire button instead to give move orders will make the pixel troopers on the look out for ennemy soldiers. They'll move more carefully, and will stop their careless progression immediately if they spot an ennemy, instead of keeping rushing forward, firing on the move. Those with a line of fire will start shooting, while the other will try to get a clear shot by moving toward the ennemy cautiously.

Of course, if your pixel troopers get caught in the open by tanks, or find themselves in the middle of a 105mm howitzer barrage, they'll meet their end nonetheless.

I noticed that with this more cautious movement, they're able to survive a lot more easily, and are much more useful as "spotters" for your armored carriers, guns or tanks. Also they're less likely to run into the ennemy and behave like if they where hesitating to shoot, move, or fight hands to hands.

Using this trick in a mission created with the mission generator, I lost only two troopers trying to capture the ennemy trenches, and I needed my tanks only once, to kill a tank destroyer. The infantry was able to kill the crew of one antitank gun and one flak gun without losing more than two men. I might have been lucky, but that was a departure from the higher losses I'd become used to.

I've noticed one "problem" once though with this way of moving troops: some soldiers I gave the order to advance with the fire button, where located in a building. Being aware of an ennemy near them, they refused to move and prefered to wait protected inside the building. I had to give them the assault order to make them moving, or they would have stayed in the building and would have been overun by the advancing ennemy troops.

[Crinius]

Thx Knokke for these usefull tips. But my problem is not so much offensive. Iam currently playing the Centauro addon and Iam in the 5th or 6th mission. Iam to defend a small village against US forces, Infantry and tanks. My problem is that I can position my Infantry whereever I like but they got sniped by Stuart tanks from up to 800 meters away with the bow MG`s. It doesnt matter if I position them inside buildings or dugouts or in the open, if theyre standing or prone. These tankers must have laserbeams. Iam always wondering how they spot my guys, who are hidden inside buildings, from 800 meters away.

[Piecekeeper]

Yes. The attack button is best to use when attacking with infantry. But there is nothing about in the manual. The only way to get knowledge about this is to read the forum.

[Knokke]

This use of the attack button is documented in Kursk 1943, but the explanation is very short and its easy to miss it and remember only the targeting part of what this button is doing.

As for the tanks killing the infantry from long range even when in trenches and or buildings: It seems that infantry having received the order to ambush and hold position will be less easily spotted by tank crews (I've experienced that they start to be shot at only when the tanks are much closer - about one hundred meter or much closer). If not, they'll keep moving from one fire position to the others when inside buildings, and will be more visible. If not given an ambush order, they'll start firing and be even more easily discovered. Also, the infantry trying to hide from tanks will be more easily spotted depending on a number of other factors, mainly related to morale: if several tanks are moving toward the soldiers positions, their morale will start to drop (the more so if they don't have AT weapons, if there is no command squad in the vicinity, if they see their anti-tank assets being destroyed). Once they become restless, they'll start to move away from the threat, even with the hold position button on, and they'll start to be decimated.

The best tactic is to have your troops positioned in ambush in places where the tanks will be able to fire only from close range (buildings located at the border of a builded area being the worst choice). Try to position your guns in places where the tanks can't get them from long range (for example, in a street where they'll remain hidden untill a tank present its flank to the gun). This means your gun, even smaller caliber ones will be more effective at close range, and will not be killed from long range - unless the ennemy decide to launch an artillery bombardment of the area). A command squad in the vicinity of your guns, hidden in a place where they can't be shot at (a building surrounded by other buildings) will boost the morale both of AT gun crews and infantry hidden in nearby buildings to ambush tanks with AT grenades. Its a good practice to have some infantry near the guns acting as replacement crew if needs be, but most importantly, to protect the guns from closing ennemy infantry. If your soldiers with AT grenades have good scouting skills, all the more the better (less likely to be spotted and better at attacking unnoticed)

Also, at least in Kursk 1943, I've noticed that the ennemy sometimes target places where they suspect your presence (could be related to the spotting imprecision: icons of troops only heard of briefly seen will sometime be displayed a a place near their actual position). I've had several instances where ennemy ground attack planes where dropping their bombs at places where none of my troops or vehicles where located. It could be that tanks are "sniping" your soldiers inside buildings because they decide to fire at the building even if they can't see your troops. This would need to be confirmed by the devellopers, because I can't remember having read something like that in the manual. I suspect the tanks are targeting your guys because they've poor scouting skills, and their location (even approximative) is known by ennemy infantry progressing along the tanks, or by the tanks themselves. The mud buildings are a good protection only against small arm fire, and anyone inside a building will probably die if an explosive shell is landed on it.

Anyway, the best protection against tanks is not to be seen, so position is the key to this: never place anyone where they can be shot at from long range while they're defenseless. Of course, for spotting purpose and to monitor the progression of ennemy troops, it is necessary to have a few spotters hidden in places where they have a good field of view. But these should have a good scouting rank to remain undetected as much as possible). Position in defilade are the best; you can't be easily flanked, and any one coming inside your fire zone will be in trouble. Especially usefull for HMG, light machinegunners, snipers, AT guns.

[phil stanbridge]

I'm loving the demo thanks very much - but I have some issues with infantry, so rather than posting a new topic I thought I would add my questions to this.

Basically, how are you supposed to use infantry successfully in this game?

I have found that I have to 'sneak' and 'ambush' JUST to stay alive. If I use 'move' or 'storm' or anything like that to get to a position quicker, I get toasted by HMG fire/AT fire or by unseen AAA fire from serious distances. The men get mown down too quickly in my opinion. It seems the enemy HMG is ridiculously accurate at extreme distances, and then there are those pesky AA guns that seem to be able to shoot into the air AND at the ground with inpunity. I've obviously got a lot to learn, and I'm happy to experiment, but at the moment the only way I can really successfully advance is by using a couple of Panthers or a Tiger, and use them solely. Anything else seems to attract the attention of every enemy on the map! So I've been having to keep my infantry way back, out of sight. I cant advance them at all unless i use gamey tactics and send them up the flanks, and then the map runs out.. Even then, I will lose the majority. Also, aren't the German tanks supposed to have smoke rounds? I can't even smoke my way across the map because my 81mm mortars expend their rounds too quickly.

Any ideas?

[Paulverisor64]

I'm loving the demo thanks very much - but I have some issues with infantry, so rather than posting a new topic I thought I would add my questions to this.

Basically, how are you supposed to use infantry successfully in this game?

I have found that I have to 'sneak' and 'ambush' JUST to stay alive. If I use 'move' or 'storm' or anything like that to get to a position quicker, I get toasted by HMG fire/AT fire or by unseen AAA fire from serious distances. The men get mown down too quickly in my opinion. It seems the enemy HMG is ridiculously accurate at extreme distances, and then there are those pesky AA guns that seem to be able to shoot into the air AND at the ground with inpunity. I've obviously got a lot to learn, and I'm happy to experiment, but at the moment the only way I can really successfully advance is by using a couple of Panthers or a Tiger, and use them solely. Anything else seems to attract the attention of every enemy on the map! So I've been having to keep my infantry way back, out of sight. I cant advance them at all unless i use gamey tactics and send them up the flanks, and then the map runs out.. Even then, I will lose the majority. Also, aren't the German tanks supposed to have smoke rounds? I can't even smoke my way across the map because my 81mm mortars expend their rounds too quickly.

Any ideas?

I am loving the demo as well but there does seem to be an imbalance issue. It seems that target acquisitioning on the infantry is way to easy, and the enemy always seems the enemy outnumbers you by a considerable margin. Consequently I play this game at easy level which gives my tanks an advantage. I send my tiger tanks out to draw the AA and AT fire and eliminate them. I then send my light armored vehicles out to draw heavy machine gun fire and eliminate them. I then have the tanks and light armor focussed on the enemy concentration areas and advance my infantry. As soon as the AI forces accross the map attack I snuff them out with my combined armor forces and mortar fire. I really don't know whether that would be close to real life; but that makes the scenario survivable.

[Spartan]

I agree with El Gato. I stopped playing at game one because the infantry were just stupid. While of course you have to give orders to your squads in the original game the ai would have them wander around in the open where they would proceed to die very quickly.

Has anything changed in this regard. I would expect to be able a few squads to attack a hill and hope trhat they would take cover or even retreat rather than just disappear in the attack as was happening.

Also, has anything happened to borg spotting?

Thanks,

Mike

[phil stanbridge]

Mike, I've spent a considerable amount of time in the first single mission, and have managed to progress quite nicely. But I think I need to sit down and read the manual

There is an awful lot to take onboard, and there seems to be a lot of things 'behind the scenes' so to speak working here. I do think (my opinion of course) that the infantry needs some fine-tuning/tweaking, but then this is only a demo, so maybe little things will be adjusted?

Even though the AI seems to take control of 'most' situations quite well, you do need to keep a careful eye on things. For instance, I group moved a squad into a nice position which was under some cover, and the men would remain standing, facing in the wrong direction, once at the destination. I had to singularly select every man, and turn him around, and then put him into ambush mode. That sort of micro-management isn't much fun really, especially when under fire. However, having said that, the squad didn't wander around - they were just 'standing' which was a bit bizarre, but maybe as a result of my orders. I did proceed to lose a few of the squad as a result. If I had move each man individually, maybe this wouldn't have happened. Either way, it's frustrating.

[Crinius]

Mike, I've spent a considerable amount of time in the first single mission, and have managed to progress quite nicely. But I think I need to sit down and read the manual

There is an awful lot to take onboard, and there seems to be a lot of things 'behind the scenes' so to speak working here. I do think (my opinion of course) that the infantry needs some fine-tuning/tweaking, but then this is only a demo, so maybe little things will be adjusted?

Even though the AI seems to take control of 'most' situations quite well, you do need to keep a careful eye on things. For instance, I group moved a squad into a nice position which was under some cover, and the men would remain standing, facing in the wrong direction, once at the destination. I had to singularly select every man, and turn him around, and then put him into ambush mode. That sort of micro-management isn't much fun really, especially when under fire. However, having said that, the squad didn't wander around - they were just 'standing' which was a bit bizarre, but maybe as a result of my orders. I did proceed to lose a few of the squad as a result. If I had move each man individually, maybe this wouldn't have happened. Either way, it's frustrating.

You can let them go prone when you select the Squad and then right click on the posture icon. Then you can choose if they should stand or prone or crouch.

[phil stanbridge]

You can let them go prone when you select the Squad and then right click on the posture icon. Then you can choose if they should stand or prone or crouch.

ah lol well there you go. I must read the manual!! Thanks for the tip - I will try it out.

[Narses]

I certainly agree.

This is not COD and individual control and names are simply adding, hee, hee. to the "fog of war". Its worse than tedious - it makes no sense.

But still I order and play.