CM:Normandy - Bocage?

[Chad Harrison]

Hi all

After the great recommendations from all of you, I just finished Beyond the Beachhead - and am now working through Beachhead to Brittany. Thanks again for the recommendations, they have been great reads!

Beyond the Beachhead left a huge impression on me as far as the struggles that the 29th ID, along with everyone else, had with fighting through the bocage. As I read the book, I kept thinking 'This would make a great battle in CM:Normandy'. But . . .

. . . what is bocage going to be like in CM:Normandy? When CM:BO came out, it did not need uber realistic bocage because the game covered the entire struggle in the West - bocage only covered one part of that. I cant recall if we even had bocage in CM:BO now - I think it was just a 'hedge'. But within the timescale of the first Normandy game, in that location, from my understanding, bocage was *everywhere*. I know that it was not so much around Caen, but thats the later Brit module.

BFC had dropped some tidbits about it (such as it can be destroyed), but I still cant help but wonder about some other things. So some quick questions:

1. What will it look like? Will it be generic like a hedge? Or will it be an elevated berm with trees on top? Or will you have to elevate the ground in the editor by hand or will it automatically come up a meter or something?

2. Visually, will it all look the same? Or will we see multiple types of bocage that can be placed in the editor? For instance, a 'light' bocage concentration on the berm, or a 'heavy' one? Or even different types - such as a 'hedge' type as opposed to a 'tree and undergrowth' type.

3. Will you be able to dig in behind it and fire to the other side? Will you get tree bursts out of the foliage?

I know that BFC is putting a lot of work into the new bocage, and I am looking forward to not only seeing it, but playing with it! Normandy have always been my favorite European conflict, partly because of the interesting tactical situation that the bocage created, so needless to say, I cant wait!

Thanks in advance

Chad

[futon river crossing]

a bocage shaped bone would be nice

[Vergeltungswaffe]

I suspect making bocage that is actually bocage is one of the reasons they are going to enjoy their Christmas holidays and release it in '10.

[Sergei]

It's going to be like this:

Occasionally, a virtual cat will come and walk across the battlefield ('earth quake') or steal one of your units ('rout').

[akd]

I'd like to see 4 types: small, large, small fortified and large fortified.

[Sgt Joch]

I am also reading "Beyond the Beachhead". It describes Bocage as earthen walls, typically 2-3 meters high, 2-3 meters wide, but often bigger, covered by very thick hedges, sometimes hundred of years old, with dense roots interlacing the walls and making them almost impossible to dig through.

In theory, you could approximate the walls by playing with the elevation contours in the present map editor, but it would look better with a dedicated "Bocage" tile.

[MikeyD]

I have this fear a 'bocage expectations gap' may develop.

There's just a few ways they could reasonably produce bocage terrain without overtaxing the system. Would you rather have the game clip along at 50 fps or aesthetically satisfying hedges that slows the game to a crawl every time the camera passes over it? Charles does have this uncanny ability to do the impossible. But lets give them a little lattitude, not be too disappointed if we get 'funtional' bocage instead of 'esthetic' bocage. And no, I don't know what Normandy game bocage looks like.

[Chad Harrison]

I have this fear a 'bocage expectations gap' may develop.

There's just a few ways they could reasonably produce bocage terrain without overtaxing the system. Would you rather have the game clip along at 50 fps or aesthetically satisfying hedges that slows the game to a crawl every time the camera passes over it? Charles does have this uncanny ability to do the impossible. But lets give them a little lattitude, not be too disappointed if we get 'funtional' bocage instead of 'esthetic' bocage. And no, I don't know what Normandy game bocage looks like.

But anything is step beyond what we had in CM:BO

Thats why I am curious. BFC has dropped a couple of hints here and there about bocage - but no good, chewable bones.

If its nothing more than a raised berm with vegetation/trees on top, then that would be fine for me as far as pretty pictures go. Its whats going on under the hood that matters . . .

Obvioulsy the art for them might not be done (or even started). Just curious how they will function ingame, in the editor and under the hood for cover and so on. If we are fighting in the American sector of Normandy, bocage is (as far as I can tell) universal as a terrain type. So it will be very interesting to see how BFC handles this . . . challenge

[Thomm]

It will be a separate terrain tile, for sure. Kind of an inverted trench with vegetation on top. Anything else does not make sense to me.

Best regards,

Thomm

[GSX]

I have this fear a 'bocage expectations gap' may develop.

And no, I don't know what Normandy game bocage looks like.

I hope that little wink means your busily testing the game right now. I would imagine that a game which can be 'ready' to play if BF want it before Xmas 2009 but are holding back until just after because they need to sleep would be in the Campaign testing stage sometime soon.

If past Modules are anything to go by they have apparently been held up with the Campaign testing rather than anything else. Or have I been reading these fora wrong all these years?

In fact, when I think about it shouldnt a new Normandy Forum be up less than 90 days before release? When did the CMSF forum arrive?

[dan/california]

The CMSF forum arrived about a year before the game, because the game was so ((%^$%#&*late. I think they want to be absolutely sure of the schedule before they open a Normandy forum. Forums that get going to long before release have issues.

[MikeyD]

In that regard, we should praise the Histwar Grognards forum for not going completely bonkers during its own long wait. Can you imagine patiently waiting on a game since 2005? That is epic! The resulting game is apparetly going to be epic as well.

[dan/california]

Napoleonic grogs are nuts in their own very polite way.

And I intend to pre-order Les Grogs the day they will let me.

[MikeyD]

I want to get Grognards too but BFC has hatched this evil plan to fill up my disk space with CM titles.

[Michael Emrys]

After the great recommendations from all of you, I just finished Beyond the Beachhead - and am now working through Beachhead to Brittany.

You should be sure to read Closing With the Enemy next if you haven't already. It has a great chapter on how the technique for overcoming the hedgerow evolved over almost two months of fighting.

. . . what is bocage going to be like in CM:Normandy?....I cant recall if we even had bocage in CM:BO now...

There was a special bocage tile, and it was weird. For instance, after a certain date American tanks could penetrate it, as historically they did. But in the game they did not leave holes in the hedgerow that other units—especially other vehicular units—could exploit. That pretty well ruined the whole idea for me.

Another time, I had ordered an infantry squad to run laterally alongside the hedge. Visually, they were plainly a distance from the hedge. Then I noticed that they weren't getting very far and they had become exhausted. It was then that I realized that the in-game effects of the hedge on movement extended farther than I had realized. Another annoying defect.

Based on hints that Steve has dropped and from the fact that terrain tiles are now much smaller, both those defects seem to have been addressed.

BFC had dropped some tidbits about it (such as it can be destroyed)...

That's the hint I was referring to. It should now be possible by various means to create breaches in the hedgerow that are permanent and that any unit can exploit. At least that's my guess.

Michael

[Takinthebass]

I suppose Bocage will be destroyable by M4 with rhino or bulldozers,and it will be possible to do some sort of holes trough them... (maybe this last thing is too much hope), but rhino and bulldozers were important in the bocage fightin'

[laca25]

It's going to be like this:

Occasionally, a virtual cat will come and walk across the battlefield ('earth quake') or steal one of your units ('rout').

Ha, ha.....

I can so see that..... very funny!

(Happened to me many times.)

[Michael Emrys]

I suppose Bocage will be destroyable by M4 with rhino...

Rhino devices were also attached to M3 and M5 Stuarts. There were also a variety of other means developed for blowing holes in the hedgerow. One that involved a tank again was a kind of tubular prong mounted on the front in pairs. The tank was driven against the berm and then backed off leaving a pair of holes just the right size for combat engineers to insert explosive charges. These were then tamped and fired, leaving a nice tank sized hole that could be driven through. As I understand it though, there weren't enough explosive charges of the correct type in all of Normandy to meet the needs of the troops, so the search for other systems continued until Rhino was developed and put into practice.

Michael

[JonS]

... I just finished Beyond the Beachhead - and am now working through Beachhead to Brittany.

I was totally underwhelmed by Beachhead to Brittany. The disappointment was a great surprise after Beyond, Omaha, and Utah.

You should be sure to read Closing With the Enemy next if you haven't already. It has a great chapter on how the technique for overcoming the hedgerow evolved over almost two months of fighting.

Indeed, although the bocage chapter is based on a thesis(?) Doubler did at the US CGSC, and is available in full and online from there. In fact, I think the thesis is - perhaps not surprisingly - more in depth than the equivalent chapter from Closing.

[Sgt Joch]

One thing which "Beyond the Beachead" really brings home is how omnipresent Bocage was in the american sector. The 29th division fought from Omaha beach down to St-lo in July and then on through to Vire in early august. The entire countryside from Omaha beach to Vire was covered by Bocage.

It was perfect defensive terrain, the americans had to develop new tactics and specialized equipment to fight effectively in Bocage. The Germans were able to hold them off with just infantry. The 29th never encountered any german armor, other than a handful of Stugs, until it ran into part of the Mortain counterattack in early august. The 116th Regiment, which had 3,300 men on the morning of june 6th, suffered 4,500 casualties, including 1,000 dead, before the 29th was finally pulled off the front in mid-august.

In contrast, the terrain in the British sector was relatively open tank country. In the Canadian sector, troops did not encounter any Bocage until late august in the battles to close the Falaise gap. This probably explains why the Germans concentrated their armor against the British sector. As early as june 7th, the Can. 3rd inf. division was already in combat against Panzer Lehr and 12th SS armor.

[Blackcat]

"It was perfect defensive terrain, the americans had to develop new tactics and specialized equipment to fight effectively in Bocage."

What I have never understood is how this situation came about. Did nobody look at a map or some ariel photo's before the invasion? The bocage had been there for hundreds of years, so surely it should not have come as a surprise.

[Sergei]

I think the main surprise was that Germans put up a fight in Normandy so close to the beaches rather than a more elastic defence, and even the Brits couldn't get through the more tank friendly country in their sector.

[Sergei]

This map shows how the expectation was to capture Caen on D day and get past Avranches by D+20. No wonder In reality it took two months for Avranches, and Commonwealth still hadn't gotten further than Caen.

[Sgt Joch]

There is also the reality that there were only a few places in France where you could land and supply the Allied armies. Normandy was not necessarily the best, but certainly had less disadvantages than the other possibilities.

Omaha beach is a good example of that, it is one of the worst beach where you would want to land since it is overlooked by surrounding high ground and there are only a few exits, all of which can be easily blocked, but again, once the decision was made to land at Normandy, it was the only beach available between Utah and Gold.

Another factor which everyone now forgets is that no one on the Allied side even knew if the invasion would work. Everyone was focused just on D-Day itself, just making sure they could land and stay. In the can. 3rd division, everyone trained for months to carry out the invasion until they knew by heart what they were supposed to do on D-Day, but everybody was a bit fuzzy on what would happen on D+1 and after.

[Michael Emrys]

...everyone trained for months to carry out the invasion until they knew by heart what they were supposed to do on D-Day, but everybody was a bit fuzzy on what would happen on D+1 and after.

All very true and understandable. But what puzzles me is that there wasn't even a small section on SHAEF's staff thinking about what they might have to confront after they got off the beach and what to do about it. In fact, there was a little such thought. They expected fierce German counter attacks and wanted to get as far inland as possible while they still had surprise working for them. But what they apparently did not do was to consider the ground they would be advancing through and what that could mean for how the fighting would go down.

Michael