TempV Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 There is a very serious exaggeration of deploy time of Syrian (i.e. Soviet) infantry ATGM launchers in game compairing to real figures. Here we are: ATGM In-game deploy time Real life normative time AT-3 (Malutka) 5 min 1 min 40 sec AT-4 (Fagot) 3 min less than 1 min AT-7 (Metis) 3 min 12-20 sec AT-13 (Metis-M) 3 min 12-20 sec AT-14 (Kornet-E) 3 min less than 1 min Sources: "Domestic ATGM missiles" by R.D. Angelski (in Russian, of course) http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/malutka/malutka.shtml http://btvt.narod.ru/4/fagot.htm http://oruzie.su/raketnie-kompleksi/138-prk-russia/107-metis-m http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/cornet/cornet.shtml I think somebody knows few Russian words to read these facts. At least "время перевода из походного положения в боевое" means "combat deploy time". English Wiki gives 15-20 sec about deploy time of AT-13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT-13_Metis-M It would be nice if BFC team explain why they increased deploy time of the Soviet ATGMs bu a such large margin, especially for Metis/Metis-M launchers, wich were designed to be a lightweight easy-to-deploy infantry AT assets. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I have brought this up before - specifically about the SPG-9 which takes 5 mins to set up in the game. In real life you put the tripod on the ground and the gun on the tripod facing vaguely the right direction. Add a few seconds for the team leader to get his bearings while the ammo is set out and you have 1.5-2 minutes max for anyone who is not conscript experience. Why does it take seconds to deploy a tripod mounted HMG but 5 minutes to deploy an SPG-9? 'Weapons and Tactics of the Soviet Army' by David C. Isby (Janes Publishing) claims that it takes 1 minute to set up the SPG-9. This may be slightly optimistic but it is clear that 5 minutes is a hopelessly long time to deploy the weapon. Likewise, if the team needs to pack up in a hurry I am sure they won't sit around making sure every part of the launcher etc is in the correct place. The team with grab and run and sort out what to do with everything later. I can't remember the undeploy time but anything more than 10-20 seconds is way too slow. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Secondbrooks Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I just don't understand why there have not been comments about this. This question has been raised few times. I think i brought this up with AT-4 quite soon after CMSF's release, so it shouldn't be new thing. But there has been no response which i could recall. I really don't know how AT-7 and more advanced ATGM-systems have changed but AT-4 already is very simple to deploy and pack-up (besides as said one can just take system to his arms and run, make it packed-up later when he reaches more safe location). Well you guys have to keep in mind that pack-up and deploy times are fixed (aren't they?). So in optimal case 5 minutes might not be even close to reality, but then again what if team looses 1-2 guys and it still has 2-3 missiles left... awful amount of equipment for one or two guys to operate. So in that sense i see it as "golden middle-road" to be taken, "simulating" overall problems which operating such system with too few men would generate. Not game-breaker, but it sure damages flexible use of several firing positions as packing up and more importantly deploying takes so much time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 SPG-9 deployment time is frustratingly long. In BFC's defense, I suppose, whenever you see YouTube videos of ATGMs, rocket launchers and recoilless guns being fired there seems to be an inordinate amount of puttering and puttering going on before the trigger gets pulled. Admittedly, in those YouTube videos you don't often see rccl gun operators in life-or-death situations. They're most often playing with unfamiliar equipment on a gunnery range. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos49 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 maybe if the red side get lower setup time, the blue side will have problems to beat the now easy red. and BFC dont like that to happen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. J-sun Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I believe when the SPG-9 was mentioned last the BFC opinion of the time was that it was correct for a transport SPG-9 which would be broken down into 2 barrels (I think) a tripod, sight, ammo prep. Although sources listed the set up time as ~2 minutes it was believed that this was under a fire drill. At least thats what I remember. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Good first post, even has sources! ... whenever you see YouTube videos of ATGMs, rocket launchers and recoilless guns being fired ... Aiming/firing are not equivalent to setting up. Best regards, Thomm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I believe when the SPG-9 was mentioned last the BFC opinion of the time was that it was correct for a transport SPG-9 which would be broken down into 2 barrels (I think) a tripod, sight, ammo prep. Although sources listed the set up time as ~2 minutes it was believed that this was under a fire drill. At least thats what I remember. As far as I am aware the barrel is single piece (albeit with an opening breach) and in combat situations I suspect the sight would be attached to the weapon before entering the battlefield. Moving the weapon around should be slow, especially with a missing crew member, because it is bloody heavy - not setting the thing up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cool breeze Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Please fix this!!! I feel it is a big systematic disadvantage to the team that tries to realistically use soviet crewed weapons. Its the reds that have most of the crewed heavy weapons. This compounded with the very long arty strike delay (unrealistically long considering that last time we talked about it somebody brought some sources that say Syria recently acquired modern fire controls) put Syria at a big unfair simulation gap. Im not saying Syria should have lots of arty like USA but when she does get it it should be realistically useful. And why do Bradleys not have to set up while the soviet kit has hella extra set up time? ... and similarly the westerners get to almost instantly fire their single shot launchers while the syrians gotta wait around a while for their RPGs. I love this game but PLEASE address this for 1.21. with the roofs fixed too the game is almost perfect. And can the Syrian IFVs get their extra RPG in storage please? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dietrich Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 *shrug* Same 'problem' with the TOW-2 dismounted launcher. **** FILMED IN SPOILER-VISION! **** In playing Field Marshal Blücher's "Tip of the Spear" campaign, I ignorantly ordered one of my two TOW launchers to change its facing about 70 degrees to the right, and suddenly the three crewmen were "packing up". Oh great, I thought, they'll be absolutely useless for the next ten minutes, long after that platoon of BMP-3s attacks on the left flank... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 LOL, this thread is the first hit for "atgm deploy time" in Google!! Best regards, Thomm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Secondbrooks Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 *shrug* Same 'problem' with the TOW-2 dismounted launcher. It is not. In reality 2-3 guys can't even move TOW-system if they are using it dismounted, too big, too heavy, too complex (=breaks into too many parts). We needed 7 men to smoothly operate it (2-3 minutes for both pack up and deploy, which was requirement), with 5 it's still reasonable. With less it's impossible. I laughed my arse off when i saw how tiny teams were operating dismounted TOW's in Marines module. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TempV Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 SPG-9, extraction from the field manual: As you can see, a deploy time for SPG-9 is 25-35 sec, redeploy time is the same. I don't think Syrians are such physically or mentally inferior people that they would require much more time than Russians to operate that simple weapon system. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Well that is pretty conclusive How about 30 seconds set up time for an 'Elite' team and make lower experience teams take a longer time? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marwek77 aka Red Reporter Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I also think the deployment times are too long. I cannot use recon teams with AT-7 (Metis) effectively. They spot something they can destroy, but until they deploy their atgm they are either death or target is away. I also vote for fixing it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alek Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Well that is pretty conclusive How about 30 seconds set up time for an 'Elite' team and make lower experience teams take a longer time? My opinion - you very much do not wish to believe a thing- SOVIET цwapon very simple, SPG-9 is very simple too. I remembe, that samebody wtote about bad training of tipycal SOVIET soldier - some months earlier, And you write now that the standard specification of the Soviet soldiers - is for elite soldier. More likely me ELITE will make deployment even faster-15-20 sec approximately. Or can be - to make the standard specification DJjavelin deployment 20-25 sec - only for elite skill ? As I wish to say- that weight AT-4 Spigot - together with a rocket-~35 kg (Djavelin - AFAIK 22-23 kg). The usual soldier can take AT-4 Spigot and to run a little distanse whithout puck up - especially to consider that Syria has no much men-portaible equipment in game as the Blue Team. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alek Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Also may be you have forgotten - that the typical Soviet infantryman, artillery or tank crew - it often Asian-men or Kavakaz-men, is very frequent 1 year of service does not know Russian - and the typical squad- or platoon-commander should maust achieved that 25-25 seconds from this soldier 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I generally think that Soviet soldiers were competant but according to Suvorov (a soviet defector who wrote a book which describes the life of a Soviet officer among other things), times given for tasks where unreallistic given the rescources allocated. Because of this, one soldier or squad would be told to practise at only one task like exiting a BTR while the rest of the company would specialise in other tasks in order to meet standards. Because of this I think the deploy times mentioned in the field manual would probably be for idealised situatiuons with well rested crews who have had much practise in nothing but deploying an SPG-9 for a while before. Because of this I would say that the time given is about as fast as it is physically possible to deploy the weapon. You might be right, elite crews could probably shave a few seconds off the field manual times so maybe you could start at 20 seconds. However I think my point still stands, in Syria the crews will be tired, scared, confused and generally not as fast as on the parade ground. But not as slow as in the game 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 The trained soldier can normally and quickly address with the weapon is not dependent on the nationality, be it Russian, the Uzbek, the American or the Arab. All is subjectivity if the soldier is well trained it though will develop a laser gun with that speed from which it and is written in the charter, and even much faster. And if speech comes about such elementary mechanisms as SPG-9, and for a long time. And by the way, as to a fight stressful situation how to understand, what by it to mean in game if at the soldier do not fire, it is under the influence of stress or not? I think that in game speed of expansion of the group weapon should correspond to the specifications registered in fighting charters and if it is necessary to apply time modifier it should depend on experience of division and fire influence on this division. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Well, there is of course room for debate on this issue since we rarely have anybody with definitive evidence to support one or another position. It is usual for us to find two completely different sets of numbers depending on the source. Unfortunately, official Soviet manuals (or any official manuals) likely uses the "ideal" and not "practical" times, so these manuals are not definitive evidence. I honestly don't remember where we got our setup times for these weapons. We did that research more than 2 years ago. But at the time we were pretty confident that the setup times were realistic considering that they simulate a range of things (off the top of my head): 1. Dismounting the weapon parts from a vehicle 2. Dismounting the ammo from a vehicle 3. Locating the best spot to set up the weapon (which, obviously is quite variable) 4. Setting up the tripod so that it is secured and level 5. Assembling the optics/sights onto the weapon 6. Assembling any other pieces of the weapon 7. Mounting it onto the tripod 8. Getting the weapon ready for actual use 9. Loading the first round for the weapon This is a lot of things to do, many of which can not be done concurrently, either due to lack of manpower or because the events must occur consecutively. We also assume that ALL of these steps are being done under stressful conditions which causes fine motor skills to be reduced and therefore increases the chances of doing this wrong the first time. Looking at all of the things that needs to be done to get a SPG-9 setup and ready to fire... I think 25-35 seconds is ridiculously optimistic even for well trained crews. Even if you allow 10 seconds for each of these things, and 10 seconds under pressure is not very long, the total elapsed time would be 90 seconds if everything were done consecutively. Even if you chopped that in half to account for concurrent activities you're still at 45 seconds. And that's pretty optimistic in my opinion. That being said, I do think we can examine lowering the setup times more depending on experience. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Thanks for looking at it Steve but I can't accept your arguement about why it should take so long. I had written out an arguement against every point you had there but I will leave that to someone who can speak with more authority. What I will say however is, what in that whole list of points is fundimentally different from a HMG? The only AT weapon that comes in more than 2 pieces is an AT-3 and they do not need to deal with any recoil which means you can get away with a sloppy job setting out the tripod. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apocal Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 It is not. In reality 2-3 guys can't even move TOW-system if they are using it dismounted, too big, too heavy, too complex (=breaks into too many parts). We needed 7 men to smoothly operate it (2-3 minutes for both pack up and deploy, which was requirement), with 5 it's still reasonable. With less it's impossible. I laughed my arse off when i saw how tiny teams were operating dismounted TOW's in Marines module. You know thats what they do IRL, right? They don't operate dismounted often, but when they do it's the same three or four guys that were driving the TOW humvee. And LOL at whoever said it should take thirty seconds to deploy a Javelin. It pretty much does already with shouldering the weapon being part of the aiming process. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolteg Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Just an illustration - ATGM Metis is being transported by its crew 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Those Russian setup times remind me of NASCAR pit crews. They're like the time it *ideally* takes to change a car tire. Best case scenario - 30 seconds. Typical time taken - 1/2 hour 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolteg Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 You do guys realise that if the team during the training doesn't make it in the time that's written in the manual, it gives a reason to "old guys" - "dedy" - to kick some butts? If it's written, then one doesn't have to be superman, but just trained soldier to complete in the requested time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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