Brits, the suicide force!?

[Pandur]

i finished the brit demo battle. i like what i see basicly, but the force you got in the battle leaves me puzzled?

if they would not have this massed amount of arty, this mission would be really though. especially if you are new to the brits. i found every vehicle they field in this battle, except the challenger, to be rather useless to "offensively" support the infantry in any way one is used to. either you get coax galore, or the scimy pops some 30mm HEs but this is rare, they are quiet picky about them(yea, i saw they have just 39 of them on board)

sure, when you pounded the enemy to the ground with the arty and removed a good portion of the RPGs and HMGs the scimitars can come out and play but befor that, i had a few crew casualties in the scimys as fast as you can say scimitar, through HMG´s

the jackal vehicle is the most odd thing, it could hurt inf for sure, but in this battle, they where bugging out behind the crest all the time, i stoped trying after both jackals had 2 man left of the 3. after that they stood around, cooking tee for themselfs and recce HQ the rest of the mission. maybe this is better for night missions where the eny is nearly blind, at stand off range.

the command structure wasnt easy to get for me either just by playing. you get a huge amount of units, most of them to sit around and do nothing in this battle. you are flooded with little 2-4 man troups wich cant really do somthing on their own, and you dont have the vehicles to support them. this is one bloody mess

the only infantry i found wich could really be used to "engage" something where this first reinforcement, 2x4 recce man with HQ, the ones wich have the sniper rifle in the group and only can acquire 1000 pice of 7.62 as minimum in their transport. how smart

and the one "platoon" or what the brats call it, the one with 3x8 man and HQ. thats basicly all there is, yes well there are the engineers in the jeeps, 8 man all in all you can count with. so roughly if i add this together i have 40 guys to sweep the badies out of their holes, and these have to do it with rather minimal vehicle support.

so, iam 100% sure that i didnt got the odds and ends of the brits after one battle, but i can say that the brits play much much more different when compared to standard CMSF as opposed to if you compared marines to CMSF. the brits are really tricky to play and you can "use" youre arty again without feeling "cheap"

so, all this nearly convinced me to get the brit module when its here, i mean BFC delivers good stuff here, no question, and i really hold it to their credit that they most possibly made me get the brit module, i mean hey,...the brits, "i" was not really interessted in that befor but iam courious now, even without additional red stuff.

what you non beta testers think of the british battle and the force you command in there? you also think arty is much more "useable" in the brit module then in CMSF or Marines?

[Wengart]

I saw the force selection as a trade off. You get a bunch of artillery, but a small amount of infantry, and no Warriors.

[Fancykiller65]

I know. Unfortenly for me i have no idea how to use the arty so I'm pretty screwed. I tried going around the backdoor and instead i found four tanks, a bunch of anti-armor guns and MGs. I go front and i die from all that and everything else.

In all by the end, i had only pinned down troops and nothing else.

Can not wait to buy it!!

[Michael Emrys]

...sure, when you pounded the enemy to the ground with the arty and removed a good portion of the RPGs and HMGs the scimitars can come out and play but befor that,...they where bugging out behind the crest all the time,...after that they stood around, cooking tee for themselfs and recce HQ the rest of the mission.

But hasn't that been standard British battle tactics since 1944?

Michael

[MikeyD]

To be fair to the "poor Brits", I just checked what sort of firepower they're packing in the demo.

- Nineteen 7.62mm GPMGs (including tank coaxial MGs)

- Eight 5.56mm L110A2 Minimi (SAW)

- Three .50 cal Browning HBs (including Challenger 'Enforcer' mounts)

- Four Javelin anti-tank launchers

- Enough demolition charges to level a quarter of the buildings on the map

- two 120mm rifled cannons

- Three 30mm Rarden cannons

- One 51mm mortar

- Four sniper rifles

Plus infantry, mortars and artillery.

And the APCs are filled to bursting with LASM (enhanced explosive M72 LAW) and ILAW (AT4).

And what do the Syrian have?

- four sharpened sticks and a jagged rock

[Pvt. Ryan]

But they are the deadly MkIII sharpened sticks. I found the mission to be tough, but I spent most of my time seeing what the Brits could do.

[MikeyD]

I must admit it is a bit 'humorous' getting those poor FV432 commanders to use their roof-mounted mgs. I swear, they often do fall victim to sharpened sticks and jagged rocks! Well, in the full game you'll get two flavors of upgraded "Bulldog" FV432s. One with a gunshield at least, the other with the same .50 cal "enforcer" RWS as on the Challenger 2.

[Dietrich]

And what do the Syrian have?

- four sharpened sticks and a jagged rock

"When I joined the Corps, we didn't have any fancy-schmanzy tanks. We had sticks!

Two sticks, and a rock for a whole platoon—and we had to share the rock!"

Sergeant Major Avery J. Johnson, USNC Marine Corps

The amount of non-recce-type, non-support-type infantry available to Blue in the scenario in question is definitely not a case of "three-to-one numerical superiority in the attack". Not even a complete company of regular infantry.

I would have preferred:

—a complete company of infantry

—two full sniper teams

—three CR2 Enchanced

—one battery of 155mm howitzers

—two batteries of 81mm mortars

But that's just me. Of course it was great to finally command British forces. Such as they were.

[MikeyD]

The orders backstory explains how the Brits got scr*wed-over by the U.S. airforce in this scenario.

British intelligence had sent the men on a deep raid against police and conscript militias (think 'long range desert group' of WWII). But in the meantime U.S. bombing had caused Damsacus defence forces to disperse into the suburbs - and right into the path of the Brits! And a pre-scenario air attack on the police compound had alerted the Red defenders. And to add insult to injury circling U.S. ECM aircraft are messing with link to British tactical air. Basically, its all the Americans' fault

[Fancykiller65]

lol You're right!!

Stupid Americans.

Altought in defense of the americans, the ECM would block any support from the Red air force(don't know how to spell)even it should be by now, wiped out. So pretty much it is their fault!

[afreu]

I must admit it is a bit 'humorous' getting those poor FV432 commanders to use their roof-mounted mgs. I swear, they often do fall victim to sharpened sticks and jagged rocks! Well, in the full game you'll get two flavors of upgraded "Bulldog" FV432s. One with a gunshield at least, the other with the same .50 cal "enforcer" RWS as on the Challenger 2.

The gunners in the APCs are always the first to die. They are extremely vulnerable. Which makes them much less useful than their USMC and US Army counterparts (LAVs, AAVs, Strykers). Looking forward to the upgrades.

[flamingknives]

The chance of seeing FV432s in that get-up is very unlikely in real warfighting. There would be a Theatre Entry Standard (TES) that would include additional armour and gunshield/RWS.

Part of the problem in the scenario is that the firing points on the direct line over the edge are within small arms range of the compound, and the APC commanders are very vulnerable at that range. (the same is true for the Jackal gunners). Stand-off is the name of the game

[Fancykiller65]

Has anyone tried just rushing to get nearer to the buildings?

I did and i lost a lot of cars and trucks.(don't know how to spell) but enough got in. However it timed out.

[Sixxkiller]

Well, I see you all have some 'Learnin to do.

First off if you use the same tactics with them as you do the American forces, good luck to you mate. You did notice how many really soft vehicles they have at their disposal didnt ya? You dont even really need a sharpened stick, just a stick to make them go bye bye.

I am not going to ruin your fun by telling you certain tactics that work great. I will however tell you that even more so with the other forces, arty usage is pretty much needed. Smoke is often way more important than pounding your enemies. Smoke helps with the speed of the British forces, you might want to keep that in mind.

And I warned you guys before this, this isnt like the base game or Marines module. It is different, and not just the accents. I cant remember the last time I didnt play 2 battle atleast in a day with the Brits.

For those of you who do buy the module, try a medium infantry attack vs a Heavy US force. My favorite way to play.

[JRMC1879]

Well - seems to me thats exactly the debate going on right now about our troops in Afghanistan. ie do we have the right tools to do the job.

Anyhow - part of the challenge in a scenario is maybe being able to do the job with not exactly the right tools - which it seems to me is what we brits are having to do in real life...

[Fancykiller65]

Why are the Brits cars and trucks so easy to kill?

[flamingknives]

Only the WMIKs (TUM and Jackal flavours) have any kind of armour at all, and they're open-topped.

You shouldn't really be putting the regular TUMs into the line of fire. Their job is to scoot around out of sight/effective range providing relocation, radios (for the command units, the FFR wagons) and ammo supply.

[Cpl Steiner]

Why are the Brits cars and trucks so easy to kill?

Because the Brits are under-resourced. This is the case in real life. Ideally the Brits would have loads of armoured vehicles providing really good crew and passenger projection but this would cost too much so they rely on soft or very lightly armoured vehicles for lots of roles.

You have to understand that British military planning has always assumed that in any future conflict Britain would always be in partnership with other NATO countries - in particular America - so to save money we would specialise. In other words we rely on the Yanks to do big "war fighting" operations whilst we specialise in things like counter-insurgency, hearts and minds operations, humanitarian missions etc.

At least that's how I see it.

[GSX]

Why are the Brits cars and trucks so easy to kill?

Not having played the Brits so far I would have to say that ALL light vehicles in SF are pretty easy to kill. Suspension of Syrian Invasion disbelief aside I dont think that a lot of the thin skinned vehicles would actually be used to tackle the enemy in real life.

Jackals et al are after all light recce vehicles and would scoot rather than shoot in such situations, never be used in built up areas and generally keep themselves out of trouble.

CMSF has far more casualties than real life but is after all a game which would be made all the more boring by being a simulation of how it really is. No one want to play a 16 hour scenario where nothing happens after all.

[Cpl Steiner]

I've been reading "3 Para" about the Brits in Afghanistan and at one point it describes what happened when a Gurkha recce patrol in WMIKS was ambushed at close range. What did they do? they bailed and ran for the nearest cover! Anyone with half a brain knows they will die in a WMIK at small arms range.

[GSX]

Because the Brits are under-resourced. This is the case in real life.

In other words we rely on the Yanks to do big "war fighting" operations whilst we specialise in things like counter-insurgency, hearts and minds operations, humanitarian missions etc.

At least that's how I see it.

I dont see it that way at all. The British military is a fully rounded off force that is much more capable than any of our NATO partners in Europe. What we suffer from is too much diversity if anything as we really dont have the money or resources to be a mini US.

I also dont see us as being too under resourced. Our kit is comparible to any military out there, our weapons are too. Our training is unsurpassed and our motivation and morale is possibly second to none. We have a can-do attitude and our NCO's (the core of any military) are excellent and would put the officers of most military organisations to shame.

The minus points are obvious though. We tend to be long service and so theres not too many of us. We were designed to fight in Europe within NATO and so we suffer from a lack of air transport assets (helos etc).

Oh and the most important thing the Brits bring to anything is - a sense of humour!

[MikeyD]

The chance of seeing FV432s in that get-up is very unlikely in real warfighting. There would be a Theatre Entry Standard (TES)

That is pretty much true (plain-Jane FV432 is very rare in the full game) but last I heard the Brits only had about 150-or-so fully upgraded APCs on-hand (the number may have doubled since then), and that number can't be everywhere at once. Think of the way the U.S. found itself using some unexpected vehicles early in the Iraq war. The hasty resurrection of 35 year old Vietnam-ear M113 gunshields comes to mind.

[Cpl Steiner]

GSX,

I take on board your points and am in total agreement that the British Army is in many ways the best trained and best led army in the world today. However, if you look at the role we had in the last Gulf War - the capture of Bazra, which was assumed to be Anti-Saddam and therefore something of a pushover - you should be able to see the point I was making.

We have incredibly high quality personnel and some truly legendary regiments such as the Paras and the Royal Marine Commandos but I would still say the Americans have the edge when it comes to mechanised warfare.

[pad152]

Can someone explain the Brit's Spartan & Sultan one man crew?

How does a vehicle even provide infantry support if there is no one in the vehicle to man the weapons?

Who the hell designs the British infantry vehicles? A bean counter with a degree in fashion design?

The Brits would be better off with un-upgraded Hummers!

[-Eddie-]

Why would they? In British Army doctrine an APC is just that. It is designed to transport troops to the fight relatively safely and then leave the fighting to the infantry and support units, such as Warrior IFVs, Jackal/WMIK FSGs and mortar support.

This is why many British APCs don't have firing ports, as the thought of a round coming in to an APC kind of negates the whole purpose of keeping the troops inside as safe as they can be (for the level of protection afforded).