Brits, the suicide force!?

[MikeyD]

Brit's Spartan & Sultan one man crew?

Oh yeh, I've lost count of the number of times I've rushed my men forward, then returned to their Spartan to provide a little supressive fire for them, and cried "NOOOOOOO!!!" when I found the mg unmanned! If I'm lucky there's a HQ unit sitting on its hands nearby that I can rush to the Spartan to man the mg.

[pad152]

Why would they? In British Army doctrine an APC is just that. It is designed to transport troops to the fight relatively safely and then leave the fighting to the infantry and support units, such as Warrior IFVs, Jackal/WMIK FSGs and mortar support.

This is why many British APCs don't have firing ports, as the thought of a round coming in to an APC kind of negates the whole purpose of keeping the troops inside as safe as they can be (for the level of protection afforded).

The problem with this is in todays wars don't have a real front! You are just as likely to get attacked/ambushed on way, even rear supply convoys aren't safe and need protection. Any vehicle in a war zone needs to be able to protect and defend itself!

Let me guess, the Brits depend on US defended supply lines!

Someone forgot the Armor in British APC's.

[flamingknives]

The support troop units do have two crewmen who stay in the vehicle (except for the HQ wagon) so they can man the MG. Where there is only one man crew in a Spartan and especially the Sultan, that is a self-defence weapon that is not meant to be used offensively. The wagon in those cases is just meant to taxi the guys about, not get stuck in to the fighting. In reality the dismounted troops would never be that far from the vehicle.

The modern Bulldog (FV432 Mk3), Warrior and Modified Spartans (came in late 2008/early 2009, just outside the period of interest) are all quite capable of supporting infantry. Original FV432s (Mks1 and 2) and Spartans date from the 1960s-1970s and were never intended to deliberately get involved in a direct-fire fight.

[flamingknives]

The problem with this is in todays wars don't have a real front! You are just as likely to get attacked/ambushed on way, even rear supply convoys aren't safe and need protection. Any vehicle in a war zone needs to be able to protect and defend itself!

True enough, but go over that once more if you will. These vehicles need to be able to defend themselves. They can. They are not intended for offensive action however.

Let me guess, the Brits depend on US defended supply lines!

In real life there are Mastiff, Husky, Wolfhound and Ridgeback to pull convoy escort (although they do sometimes use Warrior, Bulldog and WMIKs to do so.) but convoy escort etc is out of CM:SFs scope. Also bear in mind that when these vehicle are trucking about the place, they have their passengers who are able to operate the MG.

Someone forgot the Armor in British APC's.

Only the ones that you see. The upgraded FV432, the Bulldog is a very different beastie. However, the complaint seems to be that an APC is lacking offensive armament. Which is why, in real life, they invented IFVs.

[MikeyD]

I can imagine having this debate all over again when we're playing M3 half-tracks in Normandy. Back then infantry still fired high power 7.62 while APCs only boasted 8mm(?) armor. Their proper use in-game would be to park them at the edge of the map and walk your troop in.

[flamingknives]

Interestingly, the ball round of the 5.56mm rifles is actuall semi-AP and as such has better anti-armour performance than 7.62mm ball.

[pad152]

Even in a draw playing RED or Blue (Brits) the British had more casualties. Just couldn't take out the Brit tanks, they were the only things that saved the day, running around taking the objectives.

[flamingknives]

You definitely need the combined arms tactics more with the Brits than with the US.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Well, does this thread answer the question of "do the Brits play differently from the US?"

[-Eddie-]

The Brits are relatively simple when you get used to them (on that scenario anyway). Use sniper teams to scout AT and MG positions, use artillery to soften up likely or known positions. Once that's done you should have Scimitars. Advance them; but keep your recce teams in front of them. To attack the police compound I usually send in 2x 155mm onto the compound and adjacent compound. The dust cloud kicked up by the arty provides perfect concealment for your soft APCs to move up and dismount infantry.

From there it's usually just a case of wiping out sporadic resistance, which I usually use 51mms for infantry in trenches. Challenger 2s are good but I try not to rely on them as they aren't going to be in the scenario in the full module (from what I've read).

I just completed that scenario as blue with 8 KIA, 13 WIA, 1 MIA, 1 car (M-WMIK) and 1 armoured vehicle (Spartan hit by an ATGM). Did all that, total victory and 20 mins to spare. Just get to know your forces and decide how you're going to split them up and use them.

[MikeyD]

Just couldn't take out the Brit tanks

Lucky you! Last time I played I brazenly rolled a Challenger 2 forward to take out that pesky ATGM position and got a track blown off out of LOF of the buildings below. [insert cuss-words here.]

[pad152]

Well, I always take and secure the high ground first when playing the Brits, then it's easier to scout out and pick off the enemy below then move in the tanks for those stubborn spots. I do like the sniper teams, they are something I would like to see added to US force TOE VS. embedded snipers in squads.

When playing Red, hide everything and try to ambush the Brits when they get close.

[flamingknives]

The British Sniper teams are very different to the US squad organic designated marksman. A designated marksman is the best shot with perhaps a magnifying sight on his standard issue rifle.

The sniper teams represent a sniper who is thoroughly trained after being selected from the better shots in a battalion. He is issued a very, very nice rifle with excellent sights while his spotter will have spotting scopes, laser rangefinders etc. to help bring the shot in.

[Dietrich]

The British Sniper teams are very different to the US squad organic designated marksman. A designated marksman is the best shot with perhaps a magnifying sight on his standard issue rifle.

The sniper teams represent a sniper who is thoroughly trained after being selected from the better shots in a battalion. He is issued a very, very nice rifle with excellent sights while his spotter will have spotting scopes, laser rangefinders etc. to help bring the shot in.

Sounds like an apples-to-oranges comparison to me. In-game the US Army SDM doesn't even have an SDM-type rifle (i.e., such as an M21 or a SDM-R http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Squad_Designated_Marksman_Rifle ), let alone an actual sniper-ly weapon.

How do you think the British sniper teams compare with their US Army and USMC equivalents? (I mean this sincerely and respectfully, since I, for one, am very much looking forward to putting the L96A1 and even more so the L115A3 to effective use. )

[flamingknives]

Good question, well presented, deserves an answer.

I don't know if the US three-man teams will make a difference. I rather suspect that it will, in terms of spotting. When I have time and opportunity, a range comparison would be interesting.

[Zatoichi]

Just finished the Brit scenario and thoroughly enjoyed it - many thanks to the fiendish author! I ended up with a total victory, 6 men KIA, 10 wounded, lost a Challenger and a Scimitar on the way.

**** SPOILER ****

I lost the Challenger in somewhat annoying circumstances (well, aren't they always?). I had sent one over to the the very far right of the map to support my Pioneers who were there to deal with what I had assumed were infantry supporting the AT asset that had knocked out my Scimitar earlier in the game. Anyway, having wiped out that particular threat and having spent a few minutes on the ridge unmolested, I chose that moment to send the tank down the ridge and start towards the small collection of huts behind the mosque. Unfortunately, this was the exact time that 4 T-72s made their appearance, and managed to get 2 flank shots into my poor exposed tank as it plotted a safe route down the ridge, killing all but one of the crew. Bah. Still, my javelin teams and remaining Challenger on the other side of the map soon made short work of them, but even so, it was painful viewing.

I have to say, I am very much looking forward to trying out the Brits now having played this scenario, so it's very much 'job done'!

[SlowMotion]

The British Sniper teams are very different to the US squad organic designated marksman. A designated marksman is the best shot with perhaps a magnifying sight on his standard issue rifle.

The sniper teams represent a sniper who is thoroughly trained after being selected from the better shots in a battalion. He is issued a very, very nice rifle with excellent sights while his spotter will have spotting scopes, laser rangefinders etc. to help bring the shot in.

I read a book called SNIPER ONE (you can find it easily from places like Amazon, but can't post a link I guess). It was written by such British sniper. The book had several photographs and some showed these 2 man sniper teams in action. Compared to that book, British snipers *in the demo* don't do too well. But it seemed to me that when getting those best shots they were often done from carefully prepared positions. A bit like in CMSF we can use MGs with or without Deploy Weapon command. Much better accuracy.

I don't know how much their equipment really help in spotting, but I would think they could spot far away targets from a limited sector much better than normal infantry. If CMSF had a command like Covered Arc, but for spotting, I think snipers should be quite effective in that.

[MikeyD]

I did a short rough test with the demo.

I put my snipers in place on the ridge (behind a bush) and simply fast forwarded the game. As the sun got higher and higher and Reds began shifting positions the snipers began getting contacts at greater and greater ranges. At about the 30 minute mark they started taking independant shots out to 500m+ against target of opportunity. It seems alot of the complaints are due to hunkered-down non-moving Red units under low light conditions.

[SlowMotion]

Because I've only played one single scenario using these new British units, I tried to write that my comment on how snipers did was based on the demo scenario only. Once the module gets released one day then all players can see how things work once you add more light and increase team experience level. When I've used snipers of the Marines module, results were good.

But I must mention that in the book they had some descriptions of snipers fighting during the night and their performance seemed to be good during the night also. Some of this because enemy soldiers were more careless at first because they thought they couldn't be seen in darkness. I can't check details because I don't have the book right now.

[akd]

Do they have all-weather night sights in game? I suspect not, despite the description in the game manual.

Despite the Labour government's addiction to illogical defence cuts, operational demands have led to windfalls in terms of infantry equipment, via the Urgent Operational Requirements (UOR) programme. In 2008, the MoD announced that one project financed under UOR would be an £11m Sniper System Improvement Program (SSIP). 580 L115A3 rifles from Accuracy International were introduced in 2008 as replacements for the older L96 rifle from the same source. The new rifles have improved stopping power, firing a heavier 8.93mm round, and extending the sniper's effective range from 1,000 to 1,500m. Other features include a suppressor to lessen the chance of detection and an improved daylight scope, which compensates for heat haze and has double the magnification.

However, another lesson drawn from recent operations in Afghanistan is the importance of night vision equipment, which allows a crucial battlefield edge over the night-blind Taliban and allows coalition forces to launch night operations with little chance of disruption. VIPIR night vision sets had already been in use in Afghanistan for some years and an improved night-scope was expected as part of the SSIP program, known as the Sniper Thermal Imaging Capability (STIC). In response, the MoD opted to purchase an improved sight from VIPIR's originators in April 2008.

As a result, the SVIPR2+ suite was developed, which incorporates a thermal sniper sight, a spotter's site and a weapon integration kit. Unlike most night vision sights, SVIPR2+ is designed to operate in total darkness, rather than in conditions where there is some ambient light from star or moonlight. This is an improvement over systems such as the Head Mounted Night Vision System (HMNVS) already in use, which have proved incapable of operating in conditions with too little ambient light. SVIPR2+ sniper teams should remain capable in heavy cloud or dust cover. While snipers using SVIPR2+ may not be able to reach quite the range achievable with the day sight, the system does allow the detection and engagement of targets at 1,200m by night.

http://www.thermalsurveys.com/infraredimaging/2009/07/thermal-imaging-in-afghanistan-darkness.html

http://www.qioptiq.co.uk/Data/Documents/VIPIR-2+F%20TWS%20for%20SISTA%20Programme.pdf

[Pandur]

well i feel quiet dumb for creating the thread on friday, haveing to work on saturday and sunday, so my first respons is on page 5 of my own thread. well nothing to do bout it.

time of day in the demo mission;

this defenitely plays a huge role. by feeling i would say you have normal day conditions for spotting at around 0800-0900 and onwards till it gets dark again.

as far as i can remember now, the demo battle starts at 0540 or so, means its far away from ideal.

snipers;

their spotting is verry hard to compare for me to the americans after only playing the demo. however haveing 33% more spotting power(2 man insead of 3) "has to" pay off. if not something is wrong. so spotting whise i think the american 3 man team is good thing.

and the "single sniper", the one man sniper HQ or how i should call it, is verry odd, this guy didnt let of a single shot in my demo battle, for spotting this is surely not the best idea to send him out alone

combined arms;

again after only playing the demo battle, if feels the americans got the more "task oriented" force, for the task of fighting and functioning without need to come up with hords of different vehicles. US forces are extemely "allround" compared to the brits.

when the americans ride in strykers or brads they are well protected and this thing can suppor them verry effectively.

the brits get out of their rides, the rides have to duck away as there is no gunner, then you need seperate vehicles, only here to support inf unable to do anything else. without passanger cap at all.

its like the brits like to play a 1000+ pice puzzle while the americans hammer the round pice through the round hole, the square pice through the square hole and so on(you know this childen thingy to give em a sense for geometric forms).

i hope its clear what i wanted to say. again i like the way the americans do it, however its fun to solve the british 1000 pice puzzle too

in the end i think, from what i saw, the americans have by far the better allround force. you dont need to mix and match, you take this and hammer it through there, simple

jackal & co. ;

it was said at page 2 or 3 a gunshield would weight down the vehicles too much. but especially in the case a the jackal, this looks to be a massive vehicle anways, i didnt looked up the weigh in the game, but it should have at least 1.5 to 2 tons. now when you add a 20kg to 40kg gun shield there, it possibly will reduce the abilety to drive 1st and 2nd turn at brands hatch at verry high speeds as the vehicle will roll more, also you loose maybe 1 or 2km/h top speed on the few straights through weight and bad aerodynamics. but heck this is not a race car

so adding no gunshield is possibly a mean to set the soldiers straight for what type of vehicle they have here, so they dont think they can do things they cant do anyways with it. i see no other reason so far.

I know. Unfortenly for me i have no idea how to use the arty so I'm pretty screwed.

didnt you created a thread for this? well watch for youre arty thread, i gona post there, cant be you cant use this stuff.

[MikeyD]

I had a funny thought. People always complain that the Red side is 'too weak', causing an unbalanced game. They then propose the inclusion of all sorts of Red uberequipment to rebalance the game. Well, it seems the British module went in the other direction. You've now got BMP-1s vs FV432s! Haw! How's that for rebalancing!

I'm just joking, lets remember there's all sorts of ERA clad Warrior and Bulldogs, H&K grenade launchers and whatnot waiting for you in the full game. So all is not lost.

[MikeyD]

Oh, I just had a thought about snipers. This may all be a tempest in a proverbial teapot.

I recall while originally trying to balance gameplay (yes, some people do try to balance their scenarios) the Brit sniper had a nasty habit of killing everyone in sight. So the in-game sniper and his officer are both listed in a 'weakend' state (all night cross country drive) in an effort to make him less of a killing machine. I apparently succeeded!

[Pandur]

ah yes i remember, they even had -1 "fitness modifier" when beeing rested. this is surely a reason too.

[dan/california]

But now, when the module actually comes out, the 2 rested elite British snipers can take care of a couple of companies of reserve infantry all by themselves and all will be well with the world. Its brilliant!

Did the balancing have to do with adding the Challenger's perhaps? I read in some

thread or another that they were added to snazz up the demo.