CM Normandy

[Rustman]

Now, I'm assuming, because of the completely different eras, that this is going to be a stand alone game?

Now, that being the case, the important question is that if I have CM SF and CM N, will the terrain files be cross compatable with each other in the editor?

I would hate to have the era I want my scenarios set in to be dictated entirely by the environment (EI, modern units are restricted to only a desert tileset and WW2 units restricted to only woodland tileset)

I've already tried creating a woodland scenario in CMSF and the results were, lets just say, not what I expected. I flooded the area of terrain that was supposed to be lush woodland with pretty much every terrian set that I could find on there...tall grass...brush...various trees (in single, double, and triple)...and yet the first time I play tested it when I had a MG not only see, but successfully engage and inflict casualties, on a scout team through 800 meters of "thick woods", my suspension of disbelief kind of faltered.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Now, I'm assuming, because of the completely different eras, that this is going to be a stand alone game?

Yep.

Now, that being the case, the important question is that if I have CM SF and CM N, will the terrain files be cross compatable with each other in the editor?

Nope.

I would hate to have the era I want my scenarios set in to be dictated entirely by the environment (EI, modern units are restricted to only a desert tileset and WW2 units restricted to only woodland tileset)

AFAIK, this is the way it is, unfortunately.

I've already tried creating a woodland scenario in CMSF and the results were, lets just say, not what I expected. I flooded the area of terrain that was supposed to be lush woodland with pretty much every terrian set that I could find on there...tall grass...brush...various trees (in single, double, and triple)...and yet the first time I play tested it when I had a MG not only see, but successfully engage and inflict casualties, on a scout team through 800 meters of "thick woods", my suspension of disbelief kind of faltered.

That's . . . odd, to say the least. Even in Syrian terrain I would not expect this to happen.

[MikeyD]

"I would hate to have the era I want my scenarios set in to be dictated entirely by the environment".

Well, that's sorta the point.

They're trying to recreate particular tactical situations at particular times with particular forces. CMSF game engine reproduces Syria from May 1 thru July 31, 2008. The game wasn't designed to recreate dense temperate forests. That's not a defect of the game, that's just unreasonabe expectations. I somehow doubt CM:Normandy will be particularly great at depicting vast expanses of open desert, either, or alpine mountains. And since both CMSF and CM:Normandy take place around June-July there's no need to bother with snow either. I expect a CM WWII Normandy title to resemble Normandy in WWII. I've got no expectations beyond that.

[Michael Emrys]

And—for whatever it is worth—IMO, MikeyD has it about right.

Michael

[Rustman]

Well, that's sorta the point.

They're trying to recreate particular tactical situations at particular times with particular forces. CMSF game engine reproduces Syria from May 1 thru July 31, 2008. The game wasn't designed to recreate dense temperate forests. That's not a defect of the game, that's just unreasonabe expectations. I somehow doubt CM:Normandy will be particularly great at depicting vast expanses of open desert, either, or alpine mountains. And since both CMSF and CM:Normandy take place around June-July there's no need to bother with snow either. I expect a CM WWII Normandy title to resemble Normandy in WWII. I've got no expectations beyond that.

Yea...I did expect that the editor features would be limited to the game's default tileset in the initial releases...that isn't a problem. What I am having a slight difficulty accepting is that, as far as I can tell, there is no plan to expand the functionality of the editor in future patches...particularly when all the forseeable releases under this title are all using the exact same engine and the resources to create the new terrain tiles have already been allocated anyway. As much as I enjoy the default environment...it is very nice and fun to play around in...I would like the opportunity to stretch my own creative and tactical muscles and create/play scenarios that reach outside of syria...or iraq...or iran...or 'Whatarewedoinouthereinthemiddleofthedesertistan".

[Pandur]

through 800 meters of "thick woods",

verry odd, by chance, did you "patch" the game? thats maybe a stupid question but this was possible in some early version of the game, but now with 1.11...!?

can you post a screen of the map and the LOS/LOF the MG team had, with the traget command?

[Apocal]

...and yet the first time I play tested it when I had a MG not only see, but successfully engage and inflict casualties, on a scout team through 800 meters of "thick woods", my suspension of disbelief kind of faltered.

Not to instigate but exceptional claims require equally exceptional proof AKA pics, or it didn't happen.

One possibility is something that happens to me every few weeks or so, when I'm maneuvering against a known (to me), but unspotted (by this particular squad of soldiers) enemy position in dense woods. Occassionally I will take fire from terrain (generally a treeline) situated in the same direction as the known enemy position, creating the impression it's putting effective fire from stupidly long range, through terrain or under otherwise impossible circumstances. The culprit is small, unspotted enemy teams.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Could be that the terrain was all trees, no undergrowth. In such a case spotting a unit at the other end might be possible.

[Scipio]

I really would like to see an import function for maps in the editor. I know that Steve already said that this is not possible, not even between CM:SF and CM:A with very similiar terrain, but I don't really understand the reasons. 'Open' is 'Open', a road is a road, a bush is a bush etc, even if the textures and 3d-models are different. Normandy terrain may be very different from desert, but I still believe that many parts of a map could be 'translated' into it's equivalent. Flavor objects are a different story, but why not simply delete all objects that doesn't have an equivalent in a specific theatre?

Mh, I would even try to program something on my own, but unfortunatly, the scenarios/map data are encripted and/or packed, so I have no chance to take a look on them to even proof what could be possible.

Is there a chance to get an 'unpack' and 'repack' tool for map data, similiar to the mod tools? If not, why not? :confused:

[Redwolf]

The interesting question here is how the LOS and LOF issues around vegetation will be solved. CM:SF pretty much ignores it, and can do so, but in Normandy things will be different.

[[hirr]Leto]

"Tip toe, through the hedgerows!"

Cheers!

Leto

[dan/california]

More like, ram, doze, suppress, blast, and if in doubt "recon by fire" actually; but great fun.

[Battlefront.com]

No matter how much stuff you put into an arid "forest" it won't compare to a "temperate" one in terms of density. Vegetation type is one major reason, but also how much vegetation a square meter can support in an arid area is dramatically lower than it is in a temperate one. And a tropical one is even more than a temperate one, while arctic can support hardly anything. So I'm not surprised at all that CM:SF can't adequately simulate a temperate forest because if it could then we would have to make it so it can't

As for being able to spot/shoot 800m through dense CM:SF vegetation... it's a stretch to say that should be possible, but then again I haven't seen the example so I really can't say for sure one way or the other. I can say for sure that we never tested such a situation because it isn't anything we were concerned about since it isn't realistic for the setting (you can have lots of trees, but you wouldn't have lots of grass and underbrush as well).

Vegetation effects on LOS/LOF are a piece of cake to do. We just have to weight them towards the environment we're trying to depict. Obviously Normandy won't be treated the same as Syria.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Scipio,

I really would like to see an import function for maps in the editor.

Never going to happen. Sorry!

I know that Steve already said that this is not possible, not even between CM:SF and CM:A with very similiar terrain, but I don't really understand the reasons. 'Open' is 'Open', a road is a road, a bush is a bush etc, even if the textures and 3d-models are different. Normandy terrain may be very different from desert, but I still believe that many parts of a map could be 'translated' into it's equivalent. Flavor objects are a different story, but why not simply delete all objects that doesn't have an equivalent in a specific theatre?

Sure, with work on our part it would be possible to do this just like we can add new forces to the game engine. But that means releasing new code and supporting it for games which have already been long since purchased. We're not interested in giving content away for free like that. Instead we are creating very specific games in very specific settings. No mixing and matching.

New terrain usually requires new code, much of it having little or nothing to do with the terrain itself (AI, rendering, etc.). New code requires a new EXE. A new EXE requires a patch. We can't just upload a file and have people import it so that it works.

As an example, Normandy uses a completely different method for drawing vegetation. This should produce a better overall graphical effect while reducing the load on the graphics card and CPU. In order to make this available for CM:SF, for example, we'd have to release a patch with all of the code necessary to run the new vegetation. We'd also have to completely redo all of the CM:SF vegetation so that it would work with the new code, because currently it won't.

Not to mention a feature like water or bridges which require a ton of new AI programming.

Nope, it's just not a good idea for us to get distracted by this stuff. Stay focused on moving forward instead of having to spend considerable time looking back over our shoulders. Not it anybody's best interests long term.

Is there a chance to get an 'unpack' and 'repack' tool for map data, similiar to the mod tools? If not, why not?

Because none of our game data is available to the end user There's no reason to allow people access to this data in our minds. Like weapons and vehicle data, everybody should be using the same exact stuff. Having people ask what Grass Mods each other is using has been a constant, and funny, inside joke here. Just imagine if terrain characteristics were bundled in with the graphics. I shudder to think of the headaches that would cause us. Probably WORSE than letting people mod the unit data.

Steve

[Scipio]

...

Because none of our game data is available to the end user There's no reason to allow people access to this data in our minds. Like weapons and vehicle data, everybody should be using the same exact stuff. Having people ask what Grass Mods each other is using has been a constant, and funny, inside joke here. Just imagine if terrain characteristics were bundled in with the graphics. I shudder to think of the headaches that would cause us. Probably WORSE than letting people mod the unit data.

Steve

What was not what I asked for! My thought was just that a third party could maybe create an import/export tool for pure maps if BFC ain't up for it.

Depends of course on the organisation of the map data within the scenario file. I assume that the data look some kind of 'square x1-y1 = open' or 'object x at location xyz', or any other logical system that can be 'translated' to be used by another CMx2 game. But since there's no way to get a look on this root data, there no way to figure something out.

I just though that it's really pitty that all the fine maps will get lost or must me build new from scratch for each single CMx2 title. If they could be imported we would have a continuously growing pool. But well... just an idea.

[Battlefront.com]

Ah... I see what you mean. You mean taking older maps and moving them forward rather than taking new maps and moving them backwards? Yes, that is more feasible with an interpretive layer that can swap out some terrain in the old system for similar (or exactly the same) types in the new system. It's not a bad idea, though I don't see it being a high enough priority to do it ourselves. It's impractical for it to be done by a third party because the amount of time spent documenting the file formats is probably more than doing the filter ourselves. Plus, we don't want to release the file format in any way because of the risk of hackers making map cheats (we had very little of this in CMx1 compared to other games).

Steve

[Scipio]

Yes, that's what I meant. I understand your argument about the documentation, even if it's maybe not even necessary in detail. In the pre-CM times I managed to transfer Campaign Series maps between the different CS games, but those used a rather simple text format and encryption (and were of course much less complex compared to a CM map). There were no documentation or help from the developer available or necessary, just some trial and error. Not sure if this qualifies me as a hacker...

I also understand your worries about hacking, even if I don't share them. Maybe I underestimate the criminal energy of the typical wargamer in regard of cheating by altering a map . Indeed I can't remember a single case from 10 years of CM, of which I spend some as ladder admin.

But well, if you say: no way *shrug*. That leaves us (or at least me ) with a 'Pity about the maps'. I guess I just have to accept, but not like it.

[Pandur]

is it still true that CM Normandy will be released befor CMSF € forces?

as far as i remember that was the plan but is this still valid?

[76mm]

Haven't posted here in ages, but am kind of tired about hearing about the giant "hacking" threat. What percentage of your players play solo about 100% of the time? What percent play against trusted opponents? I'm guessing we're up to about 99% here. Could you please take off the tin foil hats and provide functions that many of us want?

[MikeyD]

Currently, there's a friendly cooperative Russian company building a separate Afghanistan title using CM's code. One can imagine an unfriendly uncooperative company in China or India trying the same without permission if BFC makes too much of their proprietary stuff public. Some Indonesian game design house may feel no compunction at all about respecting copyright and intellectual property law from the far side of the globe.

[dan/california]

Which is also the real problem with farming out so many of the little features we all keep screaming for. If the source code for the game gets out the genie will never go back in the bottle.

[c3k]

This is great!

...As an example, Normandy uses a completely different method for drawing vegetation. This should produce a better overall graphical effect while reducing the load on the graphics card and CPU... Steve

Does this mean that I will no longer see "crop circles" centered beneath me whenever I move the camera above the battle? That trees/shrubs won't dance and face the center point?

If so, awesome!

Thanks,

Ken

[Battlefront.com]

That's the intention. However, we'll just have to see how it goes (working on that bit now, in fact). There are worse alternatives, for sure, but we aren't going with those

Steve

[Scipio]

How about building damage? I don't ask for a high end damage model with every single hit modeled seperatly (obvious this have to wait for the third major release ), but a bit more realistic as now would be very welcome. Oh, and will houses burn in CM:N?

BTW, can a damage wall be modded? I can't find seperate textures for them.

[JoMac]

WOW ! you could see 800 meters in CMx2 through wooded vegitation. In RL I can barely see that far in the open, and taking several seconds to a minute to spot someone at that.

In CMx1, I was even suprised there was LOS past one tile worth of woods or Forest, or two tiles of Scattered trees, and spotting a target instantly.

I really hope things change in CM-Normandy and beyond.