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Okay, maybe I missed something or took some things out of context and would like some clarification.

-I believe Steve stated that we can expect fewer units in the upcoming CM family of titles. True?

-Isn't CM:N to be covered in two families; CM:N first year + 3 modules and CM:N to VE day + 3 modules?

-I understand that each family title, and add-on module, will have less units but won't the aggregate of family(s), ie: CM:N part 1 + 3 modules, CM:N part 2 + 3 modules, give us a much greater number of units?

While I appreciate BFC's striving for realism while balancing game play, I gotta admit playing with the Sturm Tiger only a few times made CM:BB worth buying, never mind the plethora of other great, and not so great, units.

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Steve has stated a few times that they would like to put everything in the game, but it wouldnt be practical for them, especially in 1 shot. Whats in NATO for the module no one knows yet, but I can imagine since NATO uses so many different types of vehicles that we will never get them all.

Personally I would love to see NATO vs the French Foreign Legion. Could be quite interesting seeing how that could play out. Set in Djibouti no less :).

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I think Steve also hinted that a purpose-built 'funnies' module might be planned for WWII.

So if you really really miss that particular self-propelled AT gun on that obscure French light tank chassis you may only have to wait awhile before it arrives in the game. BFC is notorious for announcing 'limited units' then giving much more than planned. I don't really think they can help themselves! :)

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MikeyD I did see that bit about a possible 'gamey' bits module. Sounds like a good 'un.

Sixxkiller,

I know they can't put everything into one game or module but question was more to the point that with a main title and 3 modules (following the CM:SF scheme which I thought was going to be the norm going forward) wouldn't we end up with more units/ features than a single title under the CMx1 program?

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Well I cant tell you what BFC will put into the WWII titles beyond the basics as Steve and Charles and company dont give up information unless being water-boarded.

But my best guess will be that eventually with the module format you will be seeing most of what we saw in CMx1. With the way this all works I think the biggest time constraint will be just making the Campaign and scenarios included with each module. You have to have the TOE set first before you can formally put the units in the game. The great thing about WWII will be that BFC is kind of an expert on such matters after 10 years so that wont hold them back as much as modules do for modern forces.

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Okay, kid gloves off....

The question more directed to Steve's repeated statements that 'BFC over delivered' on CMx1 titles and we need to scale back our expectations. But then they are talking about Overload Year 1 being a main title with 3 follow on modules. Which by my accounting equals about $120 US (main title = $60, each module = $20, or 3x$20= $60). Okay, so with preorder discounts, bundles, etc. maybe its only $90. And the winter to VE day is another $90 to $120 but we are to expect less juicey bits?

Maybe I am just jaded by CM:SF. Not my bag and I did not like the QB feature. And now I here I am supposed to pay 4 times the amount of CMBO for the same time period and expect less units. Really?

I was looking for some good news not just some platitudes from a bunch of fanboys.

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I feel that $60 for a main title and $25 for a module is a steal. The entertainment value that Battlefront provides is worth much more as far as I am concerned. I would happily pay $120 for a main title and $60 per module.

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I hope they go back to a system that allows you to "purchase" in some form your units. The current quickbattle has problems. A recent one of mixed marines versus Syrian regulars gave me a dozen HMMVWs and a brigade's worth of AT teams to assault through the forest. There was not a single infantry squad in the mix.

Another QB placed a group of Marine amphibs against a week's worth of prodction from the local Toyota truck plant. Such battles were done as goofs in the old CM (I can remember one scenario of 50 german trucks versus 50 American trucks in CM3), but they were the exception, not the rule. Even the QB generator in the old CM series gave you consistently better and more logical forces than we get with this one.

Just sayin.

Steve

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Chops, you may feel that way but after CM:SF, I do not. I understand and embrace the work that BFC puts into every title but I was disappointed with the latest product that BFC put out and would like some assurance that those issues will be addressed in the CMx2 WW2 titles. But my impression so far is 'expect less and pay more'.

Now I am not a fan of BFC losing and I want them to succeed with all of my heart....that being a selfish heart because if they succeed I get some sweet fecking games to play......but I also want some value for me dollars.

I also understand marketing.

Over-deliver on your product and you win. So I am wondering if Steve is under-selling so that we lower the bar and when the final product lands.....we wet ourselves? I am guessing that is the case but I would rather be told the truth.

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I am guessing that is the case but I would rather be told the truth.

BFC has never released a title that there was not a free demo available for. My suggestion, for you, is to wait for the demo and then decide if your investment is wothwhile. I won't cost you a penny and you won't lose a thing taking that route. I would suggest thts not simA

(an what are you runing with over there wino? I've been working comfortable '05 Montagne St Emilion produced by Chateau Haut-Plaisance. Chiled it at first but have been lettening it open to it full pontenlial.

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(an what are you runing with over there wino? I've been working comfortable '05 Montagne St Emilion produced by Chateau Haut-Plaisance. Chiled it at first but have been lettening it open to it full pontenlial.

I hate you only slighty more Elvis.

Good on you for drinking proper bits. Even though you are a useless tit, let me know if you are ever in the Sonoma area and I will show you some of the better North Coast selections....although you deserve $2 Chuck served warm in a pint glass.

But I still want a better accounting of CM:N and not just 'expect less but pay more'. If the CMx1 titles over-delivered to the point that BFC suffered, I do feel a little bit bad for them. But honestly, they are a victim of their own success. They fecking KICKED ASS!!! They kicked ass out of the box.

I appreciate the sacrifices they (BFC) have made. But that work is done. The past is the past. We(fanboys, myself included) took advantage of this hard work and have enjoyed this product.

I guess I was expecting a public, or a private, 'worry not....you know we are going to deliver'.....or some hints to that conclusion that I could hang my hopes on.

Maybe not.....:-(

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So Mike the Wino, if they don't have ALL the units you want, are you not going to buy the game? I'm always making comments about ways to improve the game, but since this is still the best (I may be a fanboy, but prove me wrong!) game of this type available, I'll take what I can get. And when you're comparing the new cm games to the old, don't forget to factor in the 1 to 1 resolution. I just can't wait to see all my ww2 guys instead of having several of them represented by one soldier in game play.

My suggestion to you is to look forward to it without needing Steve to rub your belly. I think it's going to blow away anything cmx1 has to offer. Not to mention that they haven't even released Brits, much less NATO. Normandy is still a ways off. ;)

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But my impression so far is 'expect less and pay more'.

That's called inflation in a contracting economy. I noticed a few weeks ago that my favorite brand of tuna fish is now packed in 5 oz. cans instead of 6 oz. cans. That didn't stop them from raising the price a bit anyway. If I put my mind to it, I could probably rattle off a long list of common items in my life that now cost 5-10 times as much they did 30 years ago. Some items have increased in price by that much in not much more than a decade.

I am not pleased that this is so, but it does seems to be the way of the world and coming down on BFC for following the trend seems to me to lack perspective.

Michael

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Mike, how's this for a platitude: do the cost/benefit yourself. If you don't think it's worth it don't buy it. Your choice.

You sounds angry about it but think of other games you play and how long you play them for. You're still getting a bargain.

MrSpkr: AIUI the QB system is being significantly revised. I played 90% QB's in CM1 and I'm hoping for something exactly like that again.

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I hate you only slighty more Elvis.

Even though you are a useless tit, let me know if you are ever in the Sonoma area and I will show you some of the better North Coast selections....although you deserve $2 Chuck served warm in a pint glass.

What did I ever do or say to you?

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What did I ever do or say to you?

You said,

(an what are you runing with over there wino? I've been working comfortable '05 Montagne St Emilion produced by Chateau Haut-Plaisance. Chiled it at first but have been lettening it open to it full pontenlial.

Do you deny it?

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You sounds angry about it but think of other games you play and how long you play them for. You're still getting a bargain.

Damn straight I am peeved. I got 'New Coked' with CM:SF.

MrSpkr: AIUI the QB system is being significantly revised. I played 90% QB's in CM1 and I'm hoping for something exactly like that again.
My biggest complaint about CM:SF. Content being #2.

And no, I don't need/ want/ desire 'belly rubbing' but as a potential customer I was asking for a bit more clarification on what to expect if I am going to drop my cash on BFC's next release.

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You said,

Do you deny it?

Pvt., you are, of course, correct and I can understand how that would piss off anyone who wasn't enjoying it as I was. My apologises got out to Mike and the whole wino family. I am an insensitive bastard.

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....but as a potential customer I was asking for a bit more clarification on what to expect if I am going to drop my cash on BFC's next release.

I would suspect as we get closer to release Steve will release the TO&E for CM:N. Until then it is speculation by everyone.

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And when you're comparing the new cm games to the old, don't forget to factor in the 1 to 1 resolution. I just can't wait to see all my ww2 guys instead of having several of them represented by one soldier in game play.

Seconded. I have never been a huge Eastern Front fan, but the idea of 1:1 modeling of a Soviet SMG platoon, with 34 some odd PPsh-41's slathering The Hun in lead at 30 meters is just DAMN sexy.

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Seconded. I have never been a huge Eastern Front fan, but the idea of 1:1 modeling of a Soviet SMG platoon, with 34 some odd PPsh-41's slathering The Hun in lead at 30 meters is just DAMN sexy.

I wonder if sleeping in a snow bank, a la Cartman, really will put me in a suspended state of animation until CM:N comes out? Hhhhmmmmm....this waiting is really making me pissy.

Sorry Elvis, or any other board members, if I came across as a dick. Someone email when the game release info comes out.

Ciao

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Mike The Wino,

I understand and embrace the work that BFC puts into every title but I was disappointed with the latest product that BFC put out and would like some assurance that those issues will be addressed in the CMx2 WW2 titles.

The #1 complaint from CMx1 folks about CM:SF is it's setting. Not only is it not WW2 based but it is also arid climate. Double strike for many old hands. No problem, we expected that :D Fortunately for us, we don't mind making games for a decent number of people rather than the masses. Otherwise we'd not be making wargames at all.

The #2 complaint is the QB system. We definitely didn't get the system out the way any of us wanted it to be in. A completely new QB system is the primary game mechanics focus for CM: Normandy (things like equipment, units, terrain, weather, etc. obviously must come first!). The new system will be more like CMx1's system in that people can Cherry Pick once again. More details later.

As of right now those are really the only two major complaints that we have to address. A host of other significant problems have already been addressed with CM:SF and others issues are naturally dealt with by the change in setting. For example, bridges, water,

But my impression so far is 'expect less and pay more'.

Well, depends on what "less" is defined as. If you think a game's total value is based solely on the number of units it has available, then yes... CM will forever more and to its dying days long into the future offer "less" than the CMx1 series on a game by game basis. If you instead include such things as depth, realism, unit details, terrain, graphics, etc. when defining value, then CM: Normandy certainly has "more" than CMx1.

As for the price, it is our opinion that you aren't paying more for less (however you define it), rather you are paying a more fair price for what you get. The price for each CMx1 game was a f'n steal. So don't think of CMx2 games as being unfairly expensive, rather than CMx1 games were ridiculously and unsustainably cheap. You got a Hell of an experience for pennies per hour of enjoyment, so be happy with that and accept it's not repeatable.

Now... when doing a cost calculation, understand that the average rate of inflation has been about 3% a year since we released CMBO. If we were to do nothing more than keep up with the rate of inflation then we should be charging $63 for a game these days, not $45. Which basically is the price of the base game and one Module by the time both are out.

In the end we sell things and you customers decide if the interest and value are in synch. CM:SF and its Modules has shown us that, so far, we're not over charging or under delivering. Each of you will get to decide that for himself when CM: Normandy comes out. Until then, there's not much to discuss since it comes down to personal opinion.

Steve

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But my impression so far is 'expect less and pay more'.

That's a confounding statement. Realtime play, 1:1 representation, working vehicle suspension, deformable terrain, multiple building types and individually tracked bullet trajectories is "less"? If that's less then "Hey BFC, GIVE ME LESS!"

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Oh, and quick thing about the total content with Modules. Since we're breaking the Western Front up into two Families it's pretty clear that neither one of them will have the same, or more, units than CMBO since CMBO covered that entire period. However, I think when the two Families are added up they will have more units than CMBO did. Either Family will have more terrain possibilities than CMBO, and combines they'll dwarf CMBO's variety. Sheer volume of game data... the first CM: Normandy release will likely track more data than CMBO did, when you consider the 1:1 portrayal and much greater depth of detail for vehicles and soldiers alike. Definitely more defensive works available in the basic CM: Normandy game than CMBO. More detail in the terrain, both in terms of variety (as mentioned) but also in terms of effects (deformable, explicit simulation of hedgerow breaching, etc.). And other stuff as well.

I can't say for sure if any one of you will find the offerings in future CM games as compelling as previous CM games. For sure some won't, for sure some will. As long as we are happy with the net result (i.e. enough people happy) then we'll keep on chugging along. Based on the info we have at our fingers, we're not even remotely close to being worried :D

Steve

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