Sucky Snipers

[Jak170]

Generally, the one shot one kill motto fares well but in CMSF, the snipers are really really inaccurate. I've had immobile targets about 50 yards away with prone snipers missing shot after shot. Sure the one time the bullet hit, it was a K.O but it takes way too long for a sniper to kill something. Any opinions.

[meade95]

+1 to this - Snipers are way, way, to inaccurate in CMSF - IMO -

I also believe snipers are much to prone to be KIA while in overwatch positions from inside buildings - After reading numerous AAR, along with first person account books such as Ambush Alley, House to House, Sheriff of Ramadi, DR, etc, etc......

U.S. Soliders (and especially sniper teams) are not being KIA from small-arms incoming fire while being inside buildings / houses ...and taking small arms fire from OUTSIDE the house.......

Of course clearing houses / buildings is where many of the KIA/WIA happens..... But in CMSF....I see way too many KIAs from guys in buildings taking small arms fire from 100+ meters away.....

[Big Poppa Pump]

I haven't noticed accuracy but my biggest problem is keeping the other knuckleheads with the marksman from firing.

[meade95]

I haven't noticed accuracy but my biggest problem is keeping the other knuckleheads with the marksman from firing.

+1 to this as well - There should be an option for ONLY the sniper to shoot - But yes, there is a real problem with accuracy of snipers themselves as well.....

[SXO]

Agreed. I was wondering why no one else seemed to notice this. I mean, I never expected my snipers to be perfect, but from all the accounts I've read about real operations and engagements with military snipers, they are far more accurate than they are in CMSF. At least as far as snipers in the U.S. military, don't know anything about the Syrian counter-parts.

The first time I saw one of my snipers firing at a crawling target 250m away out on open ground, and I saw shot after shot after shot missing, I knew something wasn't right. I think he finally hit his mark on the 8th or 9th round, or the target finally reached the building he was crawling towards. I think I may still have the save file just before this occured.

[Cpl Steiner]

Agreed. I was wondering why no one else seemed to notice this. I mean, I never expected my snipers to be perfect, but from all the accounts I've read about real operations and engagements with military snipers, they are far more accurate than they are in CMSF.

Be careful what you wish for; it may come true!

Seriously though, I'm sure BFC could make snipers uber-accurate if they wanted to but they probably just didn't want them to become too powerful. I personally don't want to see a single sniper take out a company of infantry with perfect head shots every couple of seconds. I'm prepared to accept that there is some cover I just can't see, and that CM:SF soldiers are capable of making themselves really small targets when they have to, which is not possible to show because of the limited number of animations available. If BFC are to increase sniper accuracy again (it has already been done in one of the recent patches) then they will need to make the aim time appropriately longer as well (which was also done last time) to reflect the fact that perfect head shots require careful timing, breathing control, and for the target to raise his head just at the right time.

[SXO]

Center mass shots would be easier especially for those longer range shots.

[Darkmage]

I've still seen my squads lose men to snipers at silly ranges so I reckon their aim isn't all that bad. If snipers were made too accurate it could go the other way and become silly..

just thinking out loud but would it be possible to make snipers more like to kill when they haven't been spotted by any enemy units yet? Once they're position etc is known then we can assume that units would be taking steps to avoiding coming under direct fire and therefore their effectiveness drops.

[fireship4]

Maybe another reason to be able to choose which weapon a unit uses when it fires like in CM1?

And maybe instead of rapid firing, a sniper can wait until he is sure of a hit before they fire. Different for marksmen maybe.

[JonS]

I've had 3 and 6 man sniper dets wiping out entire platoons, on a fairly regular basis. As an overall* result that seems ok to me.

Jon

* ie, "overall result" as opposed to "why did my sniper miss that shot?!?"

[birdstrike]

I guess it makes a huge difference whether the target is prone or standing and what terrain it's in. I get my guys picked off quite often by UNCONs with SVDs while they are on the move in urban areas, so I doubt any increase in sniper accuracy would do me any good.

[meade95]

I guess it makes a huge difference whether the target is prone or standing and what terrain it's in. I get my guys picked off quite often by UNCONs with SVDs while they are on the move in urban areas, so I doubt any increase in sniper accuracy would do me any good.

Not for UCONS....but for the US side sniper accuarcy is too low. Doing some further playtesting on it tonight....and it becomes more and more obvious. I understand there are likely some "game" issues with trying to create a better 'gaming balance' with regard to snipers (and not making them to lethel)...but as is now....I think a slight adjustment up in accuracy for U.S. snipers is warranted...... It would make for better game play and added level of realism....

[Jak170]

I think adding accuracy but also increasing aim time will allow for more balanced gameplay and also being able to use snipers as they are intended.

Another thing I think would improve the reality of the game is taking out the 2 "wingmen" and replacing them with a spotter who carries an m4 or m16. Under normal circumstances, both the sniper and the spotter would shoot at targets but the sniper would be less accurate. Clicking deploy would cause the spotter to put away the m16 and lay/crouch (like the HMG) next to the sniper and increase the view of the sniper. The sniper would then shoot more accurately but slower with the spotter not shooting at all. maybe a 10 second setup time?

Also, if that idea is to farfetched, perhaps target light from a sniper team use only the sniper as a shooter for a certain distance but every one if an enemy pops up close by.

[Lanzfeld]

I think adding accuracy but also increasing aim time will allow for more balanced gameplay and also being able to use snipers as they are intended.

Another thing I think would improve the reality of the game is taking out the 2 "wingmen" and replacing them with a spotter who carries an m4 or m16. Under normal circumstances, both the sniper and the spotter would shoot at targets but the sniper would be less accurate. Clicking deploy would cause the spotter to put away the m16 and lay/crouch (like the HMG) next to the sniper and increase the view of the sniper. The sniper would then shoot more accurately but slower with the spotter not shooting at all. maybe a 10 second setup time?

Also, if that idea is to farfetched, perhaps target light from a sniper team use only the sniper as a shooter for a certain distance but every one if an enemy pops up close by.

I like this idea

[Smaragdadler]

+1 from me

[Secondbrooks]

I really dont' see a reason to be extra tender to snipers. If regular rifleman can't hit his target at 200 meters, why should sniper hit much better?

If we have rifleman shooting his hiding target and missing him alot (because reasons like cover and such) then why should snipers be treated differently by game mechanics? Sure they could have spotting and hitting bonus for better optics and maybe spotter... well they have it already form being marksmen (that scope with '+'-mark, ext ot their weapon), but still it doesn't take those small bumbs and grass away.

When opponent is alert (=doesn't stand idly), snipers should have pretty much same trouble as rest of the gang to score hits.

EDIT: As to my eye CMSF is still abstracted many ways. If man can see enemy in CMSF it still doesn't mean that he has clear LOS/LOF to it all the time. Otherwise in most CMSF-situations spotted wouldn't last very long, not even a minute.

[Battlefront.com]

A reminder to you guys... we never manipulate the "balance" of something except as a means of getting it to be as realistic as possible in relation to other units. Therefore, we have absolutely made no purposeful decreases in US sniper capabilities because they might "unbalance" things.

One thing to keep in mind is that Experience is VERY important. Snipers should be very, very good. These are not sharpshooters (Designated Marksmen), but soldiers who have gone through intensive training in the art of sniping. For the US these guys should be Elite or perhaps even Crack occasionally. Veteran at the very least. For Red, same thing though I would not go as high as Crack. Regular Snipers will be mediocre for sure.

The 2 and 3 man Blue Sniper Teams should be able to spot targets better than the single man Red Snipers. This is because the Blue have more eyeballs scanning for targets.

We did make some tweaks to v1.10 to reduce the chance of support soldiers in Sniper and AT Teams using their weapons. They should be using them only for self defense right now. If they are not, I'm interested to hear the specifics of the situations where they open up on the enemy (terrain, range, etc.)

Like several of you have posted, I've had more guys than I would like to count get dropped by sniper fire. I've also not had much complaint about the performance of my own snipers.

Steve

[TheVulture]

We did make some tweaks to v1.10 to reduce the chance of support soldiers in Sniper and AT Teams using their weapons. They should be using them only for self defense right now. If they are not, I'm interested to hear the specifics of the situations where they open up on the enemy (terrain, range, etc.)

Actually I just recently had an example of this in a PBEM (save available). My sniper team, on the roof of a 2 floor building, were wandering over to shoot a guy trapped behind a wall (the wall was getting steadily reduced to rubble by an ex-BMP that has now spent a good 15 turns exploding catastrophically, trashing an ever-wider area of the map, and moving a good fifteen or so meters since it was killed - but that's another story).

The sniper team is Syrian special forces, so is a 2 man team (sniper and spotter). The spotter was the first guy over there. What he spotted first was the unoccupied UAZ (or whatever the Syrian 10 man, unarmed jeep-like affair is), which was parked just below him outside the building. He proceeded to drop a few grenades on it until it was dead. The sniper duly arrived and finished off his intended target as advertised, by the way.

Okay, the UAZ was at very short range (two floors down, one or two meters away from the wall), but was unoccopied, and surely couldn't have been that much of a threat to the sniper team.

(Pictures also available somewhere in my ongoing AAR at: http://forums.mzocentral.net//index.php?showtopic=18737 )

[SgtMuhammed]

"Okay, the UAZ was at very short range (two floors down, one or two meters away from the wall), but was unoccopied, and surely couldn't have been that much of a threat to the sniper team."

Maybe he was a Ford man.

[meade95]

A reminder to you guys... we never manipulate the "balance" of something except as a means of getting it to be as realistic as possible in relation to other units. Therefore, we have absolutely made no purposeful decreases in US sniper capabilities because they might "unbalance" things.

One thing to keep in mind is that Experience is VERY important. Snipers should be very, very good. These are not sharpshooters (Designated Marksmen), but soldiers who have gone through intensive training in the art of sniping. For the US these guys should be Elite or perhaps even Crack occasionally. Veteran at the very least. For Red, same thing though I would not go as high as Crack. Regular Snipers will be mediocre for sure.

The 2 and 3 man Blue Sniper Teams should be able to spot targets better than the single man Red Snipers. This is because the Blue have more eyeballs scanning for targets.

We did make some tweaks to v1.10 to reduce the chance of support soldiers in Sniper and AT Teams using their weapons. They should be using them only for self defense right now. If they are not, I'm interested to hear the specifics of the situations where they open up on the enemy (terrain, range, etc.)

Like several of you have posted, I've had more guys than I would like to count get dropped by sniper fire. I've also not had much complaint about the performance of my own snipers.

Steve

Agree completley with how you guys go about this / implementing such -

However, I would say I've seen more complaints about U.S. snipers and their accuracy over that of UNCONs.........And in some sniper specific playtesting.....I think U.S. sniper accuracy (rated for elite) could/should be tweaked up. As it takes too many shots at times to hit non moving targets well within reasonable ranges.....

[dan/california]

I have issues more related to their spotting and reaction time than their shooting. I have given snipers very small covered arcs focused on a ? marked building and had enemies be able to repeatedly launch heavy ATGMS from the roofs of said buildings without the snipers firing. The first missile after I give the cover arc I can see, but after that any movement from that spot what so ever should draw fire I would think.

[jenrick]

Did some quick testing, had an Army and Marine sniper team posted at the top of an 8 story building firing on targets in the open at 100 yard intervals. I only bother to try it out to 600 yds, though the test scenario goes out to 1000yd, I'll try that tonight probably. Experience was crack, highly motivated, and fit.

Considering the tools and the training these guys have I wasn't real impressed.

First off they were not able to spot the enemy in the open until they either moved or opened fire. At a couple of hundred yards I'll by that, but at 100 yds in a flat level featureless plain I think that's a bit unrealistic.

From there it took approximately 40 seconds to decimate the first 5 man combatant group at 100 yards between the two teams, with most of the killing done by the supporting arms and the M203's in specific.

Deciding to see how they did at distance, NO kills where registered at 600 yds by the USMC team using their M24's. The Army got 1 kill and one wounded, both of which appeared to be from the M-82. The M203's guys sure where having a good time, didn't hit anyone though.

I then had both 600 yd targets move fast to the 500 yd line, straight ahead. Again no kills by the USMC team. The army did manage to score 2 kills with again what appeared to be the M-82.

At that point I decided to terminate the test.

Both teams were not under fire, showed 0 suppression, where in good order, etc. A 600 yd shot on a non moving target in a low wind condition is not that difficult shot with a scoped .308. Remember military snipers are not going for head shots, they are going for COM shots, which will put an enemy down just as well.

The Army trains to shoot accurately out to 800 meteres, the Marines 1000 meters. I'm going to see if an upright moving target at range gets some better results this evening.

If you read about the usage of snipers in modern engagements, everything from Carlos Hathcock to Jack Coughlin the engagement ranges are usually a good ways. Specifically in Coughlin's case multiple targets engaged quickly at 400+ yards in several cases. At the moment though I'd say snipers are not performing up to their expected result.

-Jenrick

[meade95]

Did some quick testing, had an Army and Marine sniper team posted at the top of an 8 story building firing on targets in the open at 100 yard intervals. I only bother to try it out to 600 yds, though the test scenario goes out to 1000yd, I'll try that tonight probably. Experience was crack, highly motivated, and fit.

Considering the tools and the training these guys have I wasn't real impressed.

First off they were not able to spot the enemy in the open until they either moved or opened fire. At a couple of hundred yards I'll by that, but at 100 yds in a flat level featureless plain I think that's a bit unrealistic.

From there it took approximately 40 seconds to decimate the first 5 man combatant group at 100 yards between the two teams, with most of the killing done by the supporting arms and the M203's in specific.

Deciding to see how they did at distance, NO kills where registered at 600 yds by the USMC team using their M24's. The Army got 1 kill and one wounded, both of which appeared to be from the M-82. The M203's guys sure where having a good time, didn't hit anyone though.

I then had both 600 yd targets move fast to the 500 yd line, straight ahead. Again no kills by the USMC team. The army did manage to score 2 kills with again what appeared to be the M-82.

At that point I decided to terminate the test.

Both teams were not under fire, showed 0 suppression, where in good order, etc. A 600 yd shot on a non moving target in a low wind condition is not that difficult shot with a scoped .308. Remember military snipers are not going for head shots, they are going for COM shots, which will put an enemy down just as well.

The Army trains to shoot accurately out to 800 meteres, the Marines 1000 meters. I'm going to see if an upright moving target at range gets some better results this evening.

If you read about the usage of snipers in modern engagements, everything from Carlos Hathcock to Jack Coughlin the engagement ranges are usually a good ways. Specifically in Coughlin's case multiple targets engaged quickly at 400+ yards in several cases. At the moment though I'd say snipers are not performing up to their expected result.

-Jenrick

This correlates with playtesting I have done........ I think there is without question a need for improved accuracy for U.S. snipers -

I also like the idea above about the need for better observation/response time with a sniper team when put on overwatch of a specific small zone / building.

The idea of having "target light" mean only the sniper fires with others acting in the proper spotter role is a great idea as well...

[Lanzfeld]

I have issues more related to their spotting and reaction time than their shooting. I have given snipers very small covered arcs focused on a ? marked building and had enemies be able to repeatedly launch heavy ATGMS from the roofs of said buildings without the snipers firing. The first missile after I give the cover arc I can see, but after that any movement from that spot what so ever should draw fire I would think.

This is a valid point. I have been concerned over this as well. I tested by playing both sides in WEGO. I can have a team watching a building at close range in an arc and a hidden enemy will get up, reposition himself to a window, aim out said window, and fire all the while my guys not doing anything until AFTER the shots. If my guys are watching the building with covered arcs then they should see the movement and react BEFORE the enemy shoots. This is very true vs. RPG's.

[jenrick]

All right testing indicates that they can spot a moving enemy HQ and Combatant group at roughly 1K yards. The M110 and M82 engaged for the Army, but the M40 armed Marines did not. Now I can understand the M82, the sucker is good out to 1.5K easy, but the Marines actually train and teach engagements out to 1K, the Army only 800. The Marines did not open fire until the groups got inside of 800 yds. First kill was scored on about the 6-7th shot of the M82.

The Marines and the M110 armed sniper didn't seem to do any damage at all until the enemy units got into engagement range of their spotters. Even then the M40 armed Marines did less damage then their M16A4 armed spotters due to the much lower rate of fire.

Things to look at for blue force snipers:

1) Spotting. The main task of a sniper is normally intelligence gathering, they should have the best spotting in the game if you don't account for technology. US snipers also tend to have all the fancy toys making them almost equal to recon vehicles in terms of TI, NV, etc. Short of solid concealment (ie boulders, a dug in hide, in a building), not much should remain unspotted.

2) Accuracy. An enemy formation moving at a normal pace in the open even at 400-500 yards is not going to be a terribly difficult shot for a sniper. Out at the extremes of 800-1K yards, I can understand first round misses. However after one or maybe two misses (if you've got a bad spotter and a lot of wind), your windage and elevation are going to be dialed in, and hits should be forth coming if the targets stay in the open. At 400 yards and closer a .308 is fairly close to point and shoot with good scope and BDC on it. If the enemy was going to ground and taking cover I can understand a decrease in accuracy, but if they're still walking along they should start dropping. Currently snipers seem to have the same base accuracy as other troops, and their rifles seem to be as inaccurate as the other weapons as well. A sniper isn't the squad DM who happens to be the best shot in the squad, he's the top rifle for the company who got sent to school. Far as rifle accuracy goes I believe USMC standard for the M40 and the M118LR ammo for it is less them 1 MOA or slightly less then 10" at 1000 yards. Definitely able to hit and at least wound at 1K yards if the shooter does his job.

3) Engagement ranges. These need to be adjusted to fit doctrine and training for their respective services. Not a major issue, but something that's obvious if you're aware of it.

4) Rate of fire. The whole reason behind the M110 being semi auto is that it has a much higher rate of fire then a bolt action rifle. Currently at long range the sniper will fire a round, go to the weapon down position then re-sight in and fire another round. The weapon should be up on target with little down time. The M-82 makes slightly more sense as it needs to be resettled between shots due to heavier recoil, but still it seems excessive. The M40 of course needs to have the action worked, but the current animation seems to take too long and goes into the weapon down position as well. Targets in the open are a riflemen's dream and are going to be engage as fast as practicable to cause as much damage as possible. Even in law enforcement where multiple engagements are very rare, you fire your round and work the action as fast as you can and get back on scope just in case you need to fire again. In the military this would seem to be doubly the case.

-Jenrick