c3k Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Steve, Glad to know it's on the work list! But, um, can't a unit be at other heights? Like, level 2 through 8 of a building? I'm not sure about the point of your post, upstream, about the various allowable unit heights. In the cases I've seen, the enemy unit is rarely on the ground floor, thereby eliminating the ability to fire short. Agreed that the easiest (from my keyboard!) solution would be to allow more "residual" firing upon the location of a just disappeared enemy target. Right now we seem to cut off the fire almost immediately. Targeting "?" would be nice. Although, the ability to fire upon any visible action spot would allow that as a by-product. (The "?" must surely exist IN an action spot, therefore if I can fire at all visible action spots I could also fire at the subset of visible action spots which contain a "?" symbol.) Thanks, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Glad to know it's on the work list! But, um, can't a unit be at other heights? Like, level 2 through 8 of a building? I'm not sure about the point of your post, upstream, about the various allowable unit heights. Attention, misunderstanding alert! Apparently, each building floor is an action spot. Relative to the base height of the floor, relative unit viewpoint levels 1 to 3 are possible, that is, a unit being prone on the fifth floor sees less than a unit standing upright on the fifth floor. Best regards, Thomm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 C3k, the unit based heights get added to whatever terrain the unit is sitting on. So if you are standing on a three story building, you get roof elevation plus five feet. Terrain height has been taken into account since day 1. I am also having an issue with the instantly disappearing bad guy that is related to the ? markers. They are going away in seconds. I would like to be able to tell my sniper team that if that ATGM shows it head in the same window that it had better get messily rearranged in about 3 seconds plus flight time of the round. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 C3k, Check out the Blog link for clarification. In brief, in CMx1, and almost every other game out there, LOS/LOF is drawn to a single fixed point above the ground under the unit. The actual stance of the unit, within that terrain, is fudged. In simplistic terrain environments this doesn't pose many problems. The more complex and subtle the terrain, the more problems there are and the harder it is to fudge. When we released version 1.05 there was a problem that was dubbed the "low wall bug". Depending on the situation a unit behind a wall was either seen or not seen, could shoot or not shoot, contrary to the way the player expected. This was due to the single fixed height LOS/LOF method. So with version 1.06 we introduced Enhanced LOS (ELOS) which simulates 5 (and now 6, I'm pretty sure) different heights directly dependent upon the unit's stance or position of its primary visual sensor systems. We had planned on introducing ELOS later on when we thought the computer could handle it better. We were surprised to find out we could do it now, thanks in large part to finding some places to optimize video performance. To get to your question about floors in buildings... each one has its own height and ELOS modifies that for the unit itself. This means a unit that is Prone on the 6th Floor has a different height than one Standing on the 6th Floor. Both have a different height from anybody else on any other floor in that same building. All clear now? Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Yes, very clear. That was, indeed, my previous understanding and obviously explains how an enemy disappears behind a window. I was confused as to your _purpose_ in bringing up unit ELOS heights. Thanks, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzermartin Posted October 21, 2008 Author Share Posted October 21, 2008 Sometimes I get the weird shooting through multiple buildings. Last time I lost a Bradley from an RPG passing through 2-3 walls. Its like LOF finding a way through a series of windows which behave a little larger than you expect. I could understand maybe rifle fire but an RPG getting in a window and exiting from the other? Where is the damn fridge to stop the round? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 C3K, I was confused as to your _purpose_ in bringing up unit ELOS heights. Because someone asked about it I had only mentioned it in passing when I was giving a thorough explanation of LOS/LOF. Heights are, of course, an intrigue part of that. Ali-Baba, Sometimes I get the weird shooting through multiple buildings. Hmmm... I seem to remember something about this. I think, but am not 100% sure, that it was discovered and should be fixed in v1.11. And for some reason I seem to think it was specific to the Bradley, so it was likely a ballistics problem and not LOF related. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 While we are talking about LOS/LOF and buildings, infantry can still fire at each other when they are in the same building and many floors apart from each other (vertically separated). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 While we are talking about LOS/LOF and buildings, infantry can still fire at each other when they are in the same building and many floors apart from each other (vertically separated). OMG. I reported that bug ages ago and I swear it was fixed the very next patch. What is going on with BFC's version control?! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zwolo2003 Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Yes, that is the only technical work around I can see. Basically, allowing people to click on the "?" icons and have Area Fire center on that spot. (...) Steve I strongly believe it would be a superior solution to alltogether remove the restriction on area fire if you can't see the middle of an Action Spot, as long as it is technically possible. There is a very good example why in one of the user created campaigns, I believe it is the first scenario of "The Crossroads". There is a house surrounded with a wall with small opening, and you can see the middle of it only if you enter onto the courtyard or make a breach in the wall. Otherwise it is impossible to place area fire on it. The Red defenders fit comfortably in the portion of the building from which they can see and fire through the opening, and happily fire away. The Blue can only return fire if it sees the firing Red soldiers, incapable of following up with area fire once the Reds duck away from the window. In real life the Blues would be blazing away at whatever part of bulding is visible, regardless that the rest is obscured. This situation can be readily reproduced (I have seen it on other maps as well) and exploited by a human player. Steve's solution above would only go halfway to remedying the problem, because it would only allow area fire after someone is revealed in the non-obscured part of building, and then for limited time only. The Blue would have to parade a man in front of the building to get the Red to fire, and would likely lose the man (range is very short). Also, it would just not be realistic and damage suspension of disbelief (somewhat) - just why, if you want to assault a building, it is possible to suppress it with area fire if the middle of building is visible, but you need to wait until fired at if you see less of the building? Regarding the technical issues, from what I have heard from Battlefront about the game engine, the coupling of Area Fire with Action Spots does not seem necessary. Action Spots are there to facilitate LOS checks. Area Fire should be possible wherever LOF exists and LOF is drawn with more fidelity than LOS. If I understand correctly and the concepts of Area Fire and Action Spot are indeed not related for game engine reasons, I would be in favour of disconnecting them and allowing Area Fire anywhere that a unit can fire. Zwolo 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Cpl Steiner, OMG. I reported that bug ages ago and I swear it was fixed the very next patch. That's correct, so I'm having the lads take a look at this again. Normal Dude, if you have a save I'd love to see it. Could be some wacky building combo that allowed this to happen, not a general fault in the system. That's one of the downsides to the complexity of CMx2's terrain. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Cpl Steiner, That's correct, so I'm having the lads take a look at this again. Normal Dude, if you have a save I'd love to see it. Could be some wacky building combo that allowed this to happen, not a general fault in the system. That's one of the downsides to the complexity of CMx2's terrain. Steve Will do Steve. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzerfest Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I havn't seen it discussed but I was just thinking that having the ability to order a unit to area fire randomly into a number of action spots (similar to arty area or line fire) would be useful for suppressing treelines and clusters of buildings. I find myself cherry picking '?' with accurate area fire and would like to have a tool that would allow a wider area to be targeted, simulating a radio message saying 'ATGM in that treeline!' and the unit that hasn't spotted it blazing away with AC or MG fire until the offending tango is spotted. Additionally maybe area fire should be by default multiple action spots as right now the fire seems much too accurate for area suppressive fire... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Balboa Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 While we are talking about LOS/LOF and buildings, infantry can still fire at each other when they are in the same building and many floors apart from each other (vertically separated). This is definitely happening .... I've witnessed it on several occasions recently. I thought it was coded as intended.... Normal Dude, if you can't find a save let me know, I'm sure I have one ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Normal Dude, Two testers have not seen a problem with firing through floors. However, one did notice this: One thing to notice is that the tracers seem to be going through the floors, crossing to other floors but the actually have no effect on the soldiers themselves. Is that possibly what you saw? If so then this appears to be a graphics glitch that we probably can fix. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I would second Panzerfest on the ability, and perhaps requirement to spread area fire more widely. I would frequently like a machine gun to hose down the hole building without endless micromanagement. I also Agree with him on the the reduction in effectiveness of Borg spotting targets. So this could help both ways depending on implementation. It seems like most of the U.I. could adapted from the arty screens. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Normal Dude, Two testers have not seen a problem with firing through floors. However, one did notice this: Is that possibly what you saw? If so then this appears to be a graphics glitch that we probably can fix. Steve Hmm, I can't replicate it. They were definitely shooting up and down three floors, but I put them in the same situation again and it doesn't happen again. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 The idea of being able to designate a specific place to Area Fire has been mentioned since CMBO, I think. Definitely CMBB. The problem with this is that it would be annoying if that were the default behavior since 9 out of 10 times fire is spread out adequately. Adding another Combat Command is not something we feel is a good idea. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Well, this is both good and bad. Good because you're the only one to have reported this and you aren't seeing it even if you look for it. Bad because there might be a very uncommon bug in there somewhere that we'll probably not find. Unless I hear from you, or someone else, about this problem again I'm going to chalk it up to possibly seeing the tracers go through more than one floor. This is a graphical problem only and not one we're likely to try and track down to fix. It seems uncommon and not predictable. More important things to nail down Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meach Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 I would put it down to firing up and down a stairwell and accept it as a rarity 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzerfest Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 The idea of being able to designate a specific place to Area Fire has been mentioned since CMBO, I think. Definitely CMBB. The problem with this is that it would be annoying if that were the default behavior since 9 out of 10 times fire is spread out adequately. Adding another Combat Command is not something we feel is a good idea. Steve I agree that area fire works fine the way it is, I just find myself wanting to have another way to target a larger area for suppressive fire, so I dont feel so guilty with my plastering '?'s with accurate fire, if I had the ability to fire over a wider area to simulate a unit- a) firing at a landmark where enemy units are known to be but not accurately identified pouring fire at a area that friendly units are firing upon c) softening up a area with heavy direct fire. I'd use them in alot of situations where I COULD pinpoint the exact action spot where the enemy is. I was thinking it might be implemented for CMSF without UI changes by... alt/shift + fire = area fire alt/shift + fire lite = linear fire Im not getting my hopes up, but I think it would really add to the game. Maybe we'll see something like it in Normandy? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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