Squad Leader Maps?

[Cpl Steiner]

Hi,

It had to happen sooner or later! One of the joys of playing CM:BB was the opportunity it gave for people to make scenarios based on "Squad Leader", the iconic tactical infantry wargame from Avalon Hill circa 1977. I particularly enjoyed revisiting scenarios like "Hill 621" in CM:BB.

In view of this, I decided to do some tentative experiments with the map editor, the findings of which I thought I'd share with you all.

1. Each SL hex represents 40m of terrain. This is equivalent to a 5x5 square block of CM:SF tiles.

2. A typical SL scenario had a map consisting of 2 boards laid side-by-side (long edges touching). Admittedly, some were bigger, but 2 boards is pretty representative of a lot of scenarios. Such a map in CM:SF would be 1280m x 800m. This is already bigger than many, if not most, CM:SF scenarios.

3. In SL, a Level 1 hill was the equivalent in height of a 1-story building, and a level 2 hill was the equivalent of a 2-story building. Woods hexes were considered to be only 1-story high. However, this probably took into account a large roof, typical of most European buildings. In CM:SF, a 2-story flat-roof building is probably equivalent to a 1-story building in SL. Such a building in CM:SF is 5 elevation levels high. Thus, I conclude that a level 1 hill in CM:SF should be 5 elevation levels higher than ground level, and a level 2 hill should be 10 elevation levels higher than ground level.

4. As alluded to above, a 1-story building in SL is equivalent to a 1 to 2 story building in CM:SF, and a 2-story building in SL is equivalent to a 3 to 4 story building in CM:SF.

In summary then, if you want to make a map that has some of the look and feel of a Squad Leader scenario, use 5 and 10 level hills, 1-2 and 3-4 story buildings, and a map size of roughly 1280m by 800m.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Cpl Steiner:

Hi,

It had to happen sooner or later! One of the joys of playing CM:BB was the opportunity it gave for people to make scenarios based on "Squad Leader", the iconic tactical infantry wargame from Avalon Hill circa 1977. I particularly enjoyed revisiting scenarios like "Hill 621" in CM:BB.

In view of this, I decided to do some tentative experiments with the map editor, the findings of which I thought I'd share with you all.

1. Each SL hex represents 40m of terrain. This is equivalent to a 5x5 square block of CM:SF tiles.

In CM:SF yes; in CM:BB it was 2 x 2.

2. A typical SL scenario had a map consisting of 2 boards laid side-by-side (long edges touching). Admittedly, some were bigger, but 2 boards is pretty representative of a lot of scenarios. Such a map in CM:SF would be 1280m x 800m. This is already bigger than many, if not most, CM:SF scenarios.

Er....so what?

3. In SL, a Level 1 hill was the equivalent in height of a 1-story building, and a level 2 hill was the equivalent of a 2-story building.

No, it wasn't. The rulebook specifically states that hill elevations were not directly correlational to x number of stories. The crest lines simply approximated the height of buildings typical for that region. A Level 1 building did not necessarily mean a two story building.

Woods hexes were considered to be only 1-story high.

Not if using the pine forest rules, and again, the building levels did not correspond to the number of storeys.

However, this probably took into account a large roof, typical of most European buildings. In CM:SF, a 2-story flat-roof building is probably equivalent to a 1-story building in SL. Such a building in CM:SF is 5 elevation levels high. Thus, I conclude that a level 1 hill in CM:SF should be 5 elevation levels higher than ground level, and a level 2 hill should be 10 elevation levels higher than ground level.

4. As alluded to above, a 1-story building in SL is equivalent to a 1 to 2 story building in CM:SF, and a 2-story building in SL is equivalent to a 3 to 4 story building in CM:SF.

No, it isn't.

In summary then, if you want to make a map that has some of the look and feel of a Squad Leader scenario, use 5 and 10 level hills, 1-2 and 3-4 story buildings, and a map size of roughly 1280m by 800m.

Don't forget streets that are 80 metres wide. John Hill said he designed them "for effect", so trying to replicate them in CM will only meet with failure.

[MarkEzra]

Hi Michael: I followed your other thoughts well enough but confused on this interesting comment:

"Don't forget streets that are 80 metres wide. John Hill said he designed them "for effect", so trying to replicate them in CM will only meet with failure."

What did Mr. Hill mean by :"for effect"?

[Cpl Steiner]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cpl Steiner:

Hi,

It had to happen sooner or later! One of the joys of playing CM:BB was the opportunity it gave for people to make scenarios based on "Squad Leader", the iconic tactical infantry wargame from Avalon Hill circa 1977. I particularly enjoyed revisiting scenarios like "Hill 621" in CM:BB.

In view of this, I decided to do some tentative experiments with the map editor, the findings of which I thought I'd share with you all.

1. Each SL hex represents 40m of terrain. This is equivalent to a 5x5 square block of CM:SF tiles.

In CM:SF yes; in CM:BB it was 2 x 2.</font>

[Cpl Steiner]

They said it couldn't be done. They said only a fool would try. Maybe they were right but I couldn't resist having a go anyway.

Here is a sneak peak of a map I've been working on based on Squad Leader board #3 (along with a pic of the original board). I plan to add boards #2 and #4 at a later date to form a massive map that people can cut down to whatever size they prefer.

Please note this is a work in progress and is not currently finished. The square pattern is for guidance when transferring hexes to the map from the SL board and will be removed once finished.

[Webwing]

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Brilliant, don't stop, don't stop!!!!

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[Cpl Steiner]

Webwing,

Thanks for your support. It is taking a lot longer than I expected but I do intend to complete the project as soon as possible.

Can you imagine "Hill 621" redone in CM:SF? I can see it now. Stryker platoons hold the hill as hordes of Syrians charge across the open fields towards them. Soon M1s and T72s join the fray and the field of battle rapidly becomes littered with burning armour.

It would take some suspension of disbelief but there are parallels between the Syrians and WWII Russians and the US and WWII Germans (i.e. fanaticism and sheer numbers vs professionalism and technology) that might just make it work.

[Wisbech_lad]

Steiner. I would offer to have your babies, were it biologically possible!

[Paper Tiger]

Cpl Steiner: sweet map man. Keep up the good work! Like you, I'm an old ASL grog and I'd love to redo some old ASL scenarios for CMSF. Hill 621 is the ultimate and I'd love to do that one but as you said, it would require one massive suspension of disbelief. I have an idea how it could be done but I don't have the original maps anymore.

Unfortunately, when I moved broad 4 years ago, I had to sell all my ASL stuff but, because I could run CMBB on my laptop, I really didn't miss it. However, it's nice to see a piccy of board 3 again. Is there a web site where I can see photos of the original boards?

If you don't mind, I'd like to share some of my experience of converting ASL boards to CM. I'm just sharing, not saying that my idea is better or any of that crap. It's a very good topic for a productive discussion.

I redid boards 2 and 5 for CMBB when I made version of the ASL scenario 'The Borders are Burning', boards 5 and 3 for 'The Niscemi Biscarii (!) Highway' for CMBO and 'Guryev's HQ' from DASL board 1.

Beacause it's a board game ASL has to handle elevations in a very simple way. When converting boards for CMBB, I had to add a lot of small undulations to the map otherwise it was billiard table flat. There's nothing wrong with leaving them that way but it doesn't feel realistic to me. Europe just isn't like that. 'We're not in Kansas anymore, Toto'. I remember playing someones conversion of an ASL scenario (can't remember the name but it was a Cross of Iron scenario with Germans and Rumanians attacking a Russian held village. The board was flat but it really felt like ASL. That was a nice job.

For obvious reasons, there were very few elevation levels in ASL, (4 or 5 if I remember)but there are a lot more in CMBB. So, when doing the hills, I really increased the elevation dramatically otherwise, ASL board hills appeared as minor undulations. I always imagined hill 621 to be a massive feature and when I translated it for CMBB, I was surprised how puny it was. So I dramtically upped the elevations to make them more impressive. By the time I'd finished, I had something that was in the spirit of the board but not the board itself.

I wish I knew how to post screenshots and pictures here in the forum and I'd show you how I'd make hill 621 look. I'm currently working on two hills maps, one for QBs, the other for a scenario. The QB map has a hill labelled 621 and that's how I think it should look in CMSF. It's MASSIVE man! The scenario map has another interpretation that's even bigger.

Anyway, that' all for now. Look forward to seeing more of your work later.

[Frenchy]

Steiner -

Nice work on the map! Looks very good even if a work in progress!!!

[MarkEzra]

The map is terriffic...Glad you went ahead with it. Please make sure to post on the general forum as well as here when you have finished . The larger community is sure to want to see this.

[MarkEzra]

Paper Tiger: You need a place to upload your screen shots...try here: www.photobucket.com

Once you have that set in place you'll be able to attach your screen shots on the forum.

[Michael Dorosh]

It's not difficult, guys. This is (unfinished) board 12 from my version of Action at Kommerscheidt. Note the gully and the Marketplace. Also the use of green grass cover for the board and tan/grey building colour to differentiate between the wooden and stone buildings on the original SL map.

The problem is, and you can see it on Steiner's maps too (which oddly have paved roads?), the wide open spaces and lack of cover between buildings. Probably ok for Syria, but nothing like a European town, which is why the majority of the SL/ASL conversions for CM sucked. Recently, I've found myself simply making CMBB/CMAK conversions by using the force mixes in the scenarios as a guide, and creating a map using the random generator and then tweaking it to look "similar".

For example:

This is from SL Scenario 203 "Bitter Defence at Otta". (Tracking down "rogue" and extra scenarios for a game system that has been dormant since 1985 is less challenging now that we have ebay). The scenario card calls for board 7, 2 and 5 from left to right. But to do a straight conversion to ASL would simply look goofy. So I started with a random map in the generator, and I think this looks far more like Norway actually did, particularly the natural tree cover on what is supposed to be board 2.

The problems start to compound when you put ASL forces into CM - like adding "LMG" units just because an ASL LMG counter is called for. What many of the conversion authors never realized was that an LMG counter represented a crackerjack machinegunner in an infantry squad, not an "extra" unit.

Oh, if anyone thinks I'm picking on ASL, and actually still plays, I just published a book on ASL scenario creation -

http://www.lulu.com/content/1170795

Just in time for Christmas.

There is a chapter in the book about converting from one type of game to another than might prove enlightening. In this case, for the book, I discussed how one could use Combat Mission scenarios for inspiration in creating ASL scens, and I give an illustrated example as well as detailed playtest notes.

[Paper Tiger]

MarkEzra: thanks for that link. I'll investigate that later. By the way, I was following your argument in the 'Fed up' thread in the main forum. I was tempted to wade in there but I just can't be bothered debating with some of the a@*holes that post in those threads. Nice try though mate.

Michael: your book looks terrific. It's a real shame I don't have ASL anymore. Looking at those pics makes me nostalgic.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say 'it's not difficult guys' though. Are you referring to the elevations or the 80m wide roads? Do you just stick with the ASL levels where a level 2 hill is appx the same height as a level 2 building? How do you do that? The spirit of the map or as close to ASL as is possible?

[Cpl Steiner]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

The problem is, and you can see it on Steiner's maps too (which oddly have paved roads?), the wide open spaces and lack of cover between buildings. Probably ok for Syria, but nothing like a European town, which is why the majority of the SL/ASL conversions for CM sucked.

I completely take Michael's point but as I said, the map isn't finished yet. I intend to adjust building hexes next to road hexes to make the buildings closer to the road, as can be seen in this close up of the central village:

As can be seen in the sceenshot above, I have not just stuck down a tiny building in the centre of the hex but have placed several buildings, to get as close to the neighbouring road hex as possible. Likewise, with walls I have put them right up against the road, even if this means the map does not perfectly match the original SL board. The objective is to get something that approximates a SL board without looking silly.

I have replaced dirt roads on the SL board with proper roads in the CM:SF map mainly because the dirt ones just don't look substantial enough in CM:SF. If you look again at the screenshot above you will also see that I've added gravel roads in and around the urban hexes to make them look more realistic. These roads are not on the original SL map.

I am still undecided about how green to make the map. What do people prefer - a European-looking map with grass and European-looking trees like on the original SL board, or a more dusty middle-east looking map with middle-east looking foliage? I will probably go with the latter but at the moment large clumps of palm-trees just don't look very good.

[Pete Wenman]

Guys just a reminder of the two large (1200x900m)maps I created. Not difficult to create the clutter, and to close down those open spaces, just time consuming.

both are at CMMODS, and can be altered in anyway.

I've got scenarios underway for each, but am waiting for 1.05 before finalising

[ November 28, 2007, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: Pete Wenman ]

[Paper Tiger]

Pete: your maps are real beauties. Unfortunately, I get seconds per frame when I try to use them . Maybe I'll have to cut them down a bit. I insist on running the game with all the graphics settings at max which certainly doesn't help

[Sixxkiller]

Just wanted to say that map is awesome, and be careful as when I was doing ASL conversions for CMBO I got a nasty letter telling me to cease or get sued by the owners of ASL.... They weren't very nice about it.

[Webwing]

Cpl Steiner,

After it's finished you could make some modifications adapting the map more to the CMSF style. You could have this one, detailed and precisely following the original and another one more loosely inspired by the original source. Loads of possiblities and ramifications here. A great work indeed!

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Pete,

Your maps are awesome. I love them. Found out about them in this thread and ran to download them.

I have the same problem as Paper Tiger though.[update: actually I was running a few other programs in and so was experiencing some memory shortage... The map runs pretty smooth now]

But the beauty of the editor is that you can cut from any corner. This way I can use a quarter of the total map and still design some interesting infantry combat. If you are to have infantry only scenario there is no purpose to have a larger map anyway since the troops on foot get so tired after a few hundred meters.

Anyway, with your big maps one can have several smaller ones, unique in therms of terrain.

Congratulations!!!

[ November 29, 2007, 04:19 AM: Message edited by: Webwing ]

[z1812]

Hi All,

To Cpl Steiner and Pete:

Your maps are really very good. I am looking at them and thinking how much they are like little works of art. "3d landscape painting" is a term that comes to mind.

Of course not to mention the possibilities for ambushes and where armour might best approach. Which map areas afford the best LOS ect. ect.

Cpl Steiner you were wondering how green to make your map. Why not have more than one version. One perhaps sparse ( better for armour), one medium (mech type battles) and one dense (infantry type battles).

Good Work!

Regards John

[ December 12, 2007, 06:25 AM: Message edited by: z1812 ]

[H.W. Guderian]

Originally posted by Cpl Steiner:

[snip]

Here is a sneak peak of a map I've been working on based on Squad Leader board #3 (along with a pic of the original board). I plan to add boards #2 and #4 at a later date to form a massive map that people can cut down to whatever size they prefer.

[snip]

Cpl, Thanks! Lt. Stahler (9-2) would be proud!

Funny, I don't remember those mosques in SL? =)

[Cpl Steiner]

Webwing, z1812, H.W.Guderian,

Thanks for your support. Work has been slowed due to an urgent college assignment but I still intend to finish the map and get it out to people some time in the new year. I've now extended it to include two more SL boards, configured as for the classic "Hill 621" scenario. Once it's released people will be able to cut it down to whatever size they prefer.

Here's a new screenshot:

[Paper Tiger]

Cpl Steiner

how's the work going on that map? It looks really good. Do you happen to have the original OB for that particular scenario? I sold all my ASL stuff when I moved abroad four years ago and I can't remember it.

I have an idea that it could be done but as a Red v Red situation. The US (ie German) armour would utterly paste the Syrian (ie Russian) armour. I'm doing a lot of Red on Red battles just now and I'm pretty sure I could get this one to work.

[General_solomon]

thanks to all the scenario designers. hopefully we'll get more maps after the holidays.

keep up the good work.

[Webwing]

Cpl Steiner has been too quiet lately.

He's up to something!

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