John Kettler Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 Megakill, Steve, Moon, There was extensive discussion during the CM dev days on how tank turns and pivoting would, would not, and in some cases, could not be modeled. Eyewitness accounts from U.S. Army tankers flat out said that the German tanks were more maneuverable than ours when it came to turning. The Sherman, for example, took considerable time and space to turn around, whereas many German tanks could pivot turn in their own length. Loud and anguished was the grousing when, for a variety of reasons, German tanks and SPs wound up unable to do in the games what they could do in real life. This problem particularly afflicted the Tiger tank, which was saddled with a slow turret traverse rate, then was further penalized by being unable to pivot turn. Given the above, I'd like to know, please, how this potentially vital at this level of combat issue is being addressed? Will ToW tanks and SPs finally be able to do what their historical counterparts could? Sure hope so! Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kabex Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 As far as I know the only WW2 tank that could turn on its own axis(pivot turn or whatever) was the Tiger. However, Tiger commanders never did this because it overstressed the transmission or some such, and it would often break down. Basically: pivot turning was never done, the only tank that had the capability didn't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComradeP Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 kabex: the question wasn't about pivoting only, it was about turning and a turning radius. As the topic starter noted, it should be possible for German tanks (say a Panzer IVH) to turn a lot faster than a Sherman (any model, the slow turning problem was never fixed). For a Tiger, it might actually be wiser to turn the tank rather than the turret, as it takes ages to turn the turret further than 45 degrees. I guess Moon or others will have to enlighten us how the Panzer IV C/Panzer II's/Panzer I's and the Polish 7TP's turned. By the way Moon: I noticed you stated a Panzer IV C arrived, but in the end game screenshot, there are 2, did the other arrive later or did you upgrade something (if that's possible)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tools4fools Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 If I remeber correctly from an old CM topic, Tiger, Panther plus two british (Churchill and Challenger) chassis could pivot on the spot. If it is not modeled directly (looking at the thread tracks in the grass it seems tanks turn "on the spot") can we at least expect that those tanks which were able to pivot will perform said task faster than those which could not? **** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1C Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 Originally posted by John Kettler: Megakill, Steve, Moon, There was extensive discussion during the CM dev days on how tank turns and pivoting would, would not, and in some cases, could not be modeled. Eyewitness accounts from U.S. Army tankers flat out said that the German tanks were more maneuverable than ours when it came to turning. The Sherman, for example, took considerable time and space to turn around, whereas many German tanks could pivot turn in their own length. Loud and anguished was the grousing when, for a variety of reasons, German tanks and SPs wound up unable to do in the games what they could do in real life. This problem particularly afflicted the Tiger tank, which was saddled with a slow turret traverse rate, then was further penalized by being unable to pivot turn. Given the above, I'd like to know, please, how this potentially vital at this level of combat issue is being addressed? Will ToW tanks and SPs finally be able to do what their historical counterparts could? Sure hope so! Regards, John Kettler If I have correctly understood your question. We use uniq speeds of turn of towers, tanks, Prompting and aiming for ALL UNITS! According to historical and specifications Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salkin Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 Originally posted by David1C: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John Kettler: Megakill, Steve, Moon, There was extensive discussion during the CM dev days on how tank turns and pivoting would, would not, and in some cases, could not be modeled. Eyewitness accounts from U.S. Army tankers flat out said that the German tanks were more maneuverable than ours when it came to turning. The Sherman, for example, took considerable time and space to turn around, whereas many German tanks could pivot turn in their own length. Loud and anguished was the grousing when, for a variety of reasons, German tanks and SPs wound up unable to do in the games what they could do in real life. This problem particularly afflicted the Tiger tank, which was saddled with a slow turret traverse rate, then was further penalized by being unable to pivot turn. Given the above, I'd like to know, please, how this potentially vital at this level of combat issue is being addressed? Will ToW tanks and SPs finally be able to do what their historical counterparts could? Sure hope so! Regards, John Kettler If I have correctly understood your question. We use uniq speeds of turn of towers, tanks, Prompting and aiming for ALL UNITS! According to historical and specifications </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denwad Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 The French Char B1 bis could pivot turn with great accuracy, in order to aim the 75mm hull gun which was in a mount that could only elevate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComradeP Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Some data from a discussion I participated in about the T34 vs M4 on the JP's Wargaming and History forum, where the following data was also included: Turn Radius: PzIIIJ - 5.85m PzIVG - 5.92m T-34-76 Model 1940 - 7.6m T-34-76 Model 1941 - 7.6m T-34-76 Model 1942 - 7.6m T-34-76 Model 1943 - 7.6m T-34-85 Model 1943 - 7.6m T-34-85 Model 1944 - 7.6m PzV Panther A - 10.0m M5A1 - 12.8m M4 - 18.9m M4A1 - 18.9m M4A1(76)W - 18.9m M4A2 - 18.9m M4A2(76)W - 18.9m M4A3(75)W - 18.9m M4A3E8 - 18.9m M4A3 - 19m M4A4 - 21m M4A3E2 - 23m Somua S.35 - ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barkhorn1x Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Damn, good thing the Sherman had a hydraulic turret - it needed it! Barkhorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 A few days ago I posted on the CMBB chat site a video clip of the Kubinka Panther out for a spin. It first drove to the end of a short dirt road, and its 180 degree pivot to come back was so painfully slow to watch the camera was eventually stopped as the beast finished its turn. Maybe that was just the museum staff being extra careful not to throw a track, but the action wouldn't have looked out of place in a CM scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spindry69 Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 I was lead to believe that tank pivoting was used in combat. In fact that it was a speciality for the German tank ace Wittmann, but it was done sparingly because the pivot built up soil around the tracks thus risking throwing a tread. [ August 15, 2006, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Spindry69 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melnibone Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 Originally posted by Spindry69: I was lead to believe that tank pivoting was used in combat. In fact that it was a speciality for the German tank ace Whittman, but it was done sparingly because the pivot built up soil around the tracks thus risking throwing a tread. WITTMANN :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarkus Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 Excuse my ignorance on these matters, but how come turning on their own lenght can't be done by all tanks ? I'm not doubting this fact, but I'd like to understand where lay the difference, mechanically. We need a tank driving grog over here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melnibone Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 This may help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigweez Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Pivotting in place is still rare today as it greatly increases the chance of throwing a track. Anyone that has ever spent four or five hours replacing a track will tell you that they avoid it at all cost. It's almost always too hot or too cold or too darn muddy. And if you are under fire it's a hairball you don't want to be in. You try and plan your movement ahead, and make great use of reverse instead. Tankers don't act like they do in the movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark_Britton Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 http://pedg.chollie.co.uk/guestpics.htm Click on the first video and watch this restored PzIV turn on a dime. cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnersman Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 I would say that is more like turning around a dime. But, WOW, that was fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 Yeah, that was with one locked track. The point of discussion is whether it could pivot on its center axis by driving the tracks in opposite directions. I wonder if they would have locked the track like that if they were on soft ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tools4fools Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 About 6 seconds for an 180 degree turn? Sort of a power slide... I remember reading in these forums long time ago that only Tiger and Panther chassis plus two brit chassis (Churchill plus Comet maybe) could pivot on spot. **** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 14, 2006 Author Share Posted August 14, 2006 Melnibone, A first. An AFV steering grog! Would be even more interesting were I more awake. Mark_Britton, Love the videos, of which I'd previously somewhere seen one segment, and the pictures. The PEDG thing really takes me back, for I worked with some of those guys to help accurize Panzer Elite's ammo modeling and penetration data. The Puppchen thread on CMAK has some good video here http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=30;t=004880 showing just how fast a T-34/76 could whip out a turn coming off movement and also execute a pivot while halted. Regards, John Kettler [ August 14, 2006, 04:41 AM: Message edited by: John Kettler ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Originally posted by ComradeP: Some data from a discussion I participated in about the T34 vs M4 on the JP's Wargaming and History forum, where the following data was also included: Turn Radius: PzIIIJ - 5.85m PzIVG - 5.92m T-34-76 Model 1940 - 7.6m T-34-76 Model 1941 - 7.6m T-34-76 Model 1942 - 7.6m T-34-76 Model 1943 - 7.6m T-34-85 Model 1943 - 7.6m T-34-85 Model 1944 - 7.6m PzV Panther A - 10.0m M5A1 - 12.8m M4 - 18.9m M4A1 - 18.9m M4A1(76)W - 18.9m M4A2 - 18.9m M4A2(76)W - 18.9m M4A3(75)W - 18.9m M4A3E8 - 18.9m M4A3 - 19m M4A4 - 21m M4A3E2 - 23m Somua S.35 - ? Any idea what source these figures come from? I'm not disputing them, but would like to quote them. Any idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Originally posted by Melnibone: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Spindry69: I was lead to believe that tank pivoting was used in combat. In fact that it was a speciality for the German tank ace Whittman, but it was done sparingly because the pivot built up soil around the tracks thus risking throwing a tread. WITTMANN :mad: </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComradeP Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Any idea what source these figures come from? I'm not disputing them, but would like to quote them. Any idea? I don't know the exact sources, but it was posted on the JP's wargaming and history forum which has a large amount of grogs as members, so I don't dispute it. The person that posted those figures (together with other figures for the various tanks) didn't state which sources he used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Do you have a link to the forum? I don't know which one you're referring to. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComradeP Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 JP's Wargaming and History forum- WWII section - Sherman vs T34 topic The post was made on page 10 (at the bottom of the page). Do note that not all of the posters are grogs, but some of them are ( I post on that forum myself, but I'm not a WWII grog, I'm more of a 17th/18th centuries grog). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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