Mod suggestion: Arab-Israeli Wars

[Cpl Steiner]

Hi,

I've been thinking, given that the mod tools for CM:SF are so good now, would it be possible to put together a mod that would portray Arab-Israel battles such as some in the Yom Kippur War.

The standard Israel assault rifle is the Galil, which looks very like an AK:

In theory then, Israelis could be modded from Red force troops, possibly Syrian Special Forces.

If Arab forces are treated as standard Red forces then they would not conflict with any uniform mods for the IDF.

The Arab forces would primarily use the T-55 (with maybe some T-62s), BMP-1, and BTR-60.

For the IDF, they could use the T-55 as well. According to this Wikipedia article, they had about 200 of them, captured in the '67 war and converted to use a British-made main gun.

Yom Kippur War - Wikipedia

As for IDF troop carriers, they only had half-tracks and M113s, so this would be harder to simulate. Perhaps BTRs could be substituted for them.

Any thoughts?

[gibsonm]

The British 105mm L7 is very different to the original Soviet 100mm D-10 weapon.

So while it might look “OK” you’d be doing the IDF a major disservice.

Depends if you are happy to abandon accuracy for looks I guess.

[Bahger]

The '73 war was a real armor event, on both fronts, which is why I've always wanted to see it modeled in Steel Beasts. Their MBTs were British Challengers, I seem to recall.

There is a fantastic memoir of the Yom Kippur War by a top IDF tank commander but I'd have to be at home to find it and confirm title/author.

Of course, the biggest contribution to accuracy in a simulation would be to ensure that the Arab player could never open the hatch and stick his head out, as their (understandable) reluctance to do so was a key factor in the Israeli victory. IDF tank commanders did not ride buttoned up.

[ February 27, 2008, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: Bahger ]

[Douglas Rudd]

Israel fielded the Centurion. Think it was the Mk 5/7

[gibsonm]

Actually the IDF fielded both M-48 and Centurion.

All were modified to be armed with the British 105mm L7. Some Centurions already had it, some had to be upgraded from 20 Pdr.

In any event, none of this can be accurately replicated in CM:SF as it stands now.

[bobby77]

I would really love to see a mod for the Arab-Israeli conflict 1967 + 1973. I don't know how much can be done in modding, but the L7 105 mm gun isn't the biggest problem - the Stryker has it (called M68 in american terms)!

[kipanderson]

Hi,

I agree that I too would love to see the Yom Kippur War in a module.

It would have to be in a reduced version with only the most “famous” AFVs of each side modelled. All that is needed is in the Syrian mix already.

CMSF is a wonder of a simulation, just look at the gap between it any other attempt at the modern era. CM is the only PC game I play because it is moving military history. But in my view CMSF is much under used in its present setting. Still hugely good fun…. but not used to its full potential.

After the Brit module… end with bang… Yom Kippur War… .

All good fun,

All the best,

Kip.

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by bobby77:

I would really love to see a mod for the Arab-Israeli conflict 1967 + 1973. I don't know how much can be done in modding, but the L7 105 mm gun isn't the biggest problem - the Stryker has it (called M68 in american terms)!

The “problem” is that while the IDF might be painted via a mod to look like Israeli vehicles, the gun being modelled will still be the Soviet 100 mm (even if you do put a fume extractor on half way down) and that will not give you the same results as a proper IDF vehicle with a L7 gun modelled.

[Clavicula_Nox]

I don't think there is a way to change:

A. Models

B. TO&E

C. Unit Attributes

[gibsonm]

There isn’t.

That’s why these mods might look pretty but are about as accurate as a “two bob watch”.

[SlapHappy]

While I would have been the first to champion an Arab-Israeli war game over this "hypothetical Syrian-US current time conflict", I don't believe there is any way to do it very accurately at all with just skinning mods.

I have fond memories of my AH Arab-Israeli board game. I don't think such a simulation would have been greatly more challenging than the game we have now, but the 1973 battles in and of themselves probably would have been a better overall matchup.

[MikeyD]

With the available equipment the closest you'd be able to get to a '73 war would be Red vs Red (mixed) game. No body armor. No reactive armor. No superweapons. One side gets use of Blue side airpower. Israel did field a sizeable number of recovered T55s and T62s - though I admit the bulk of their vehicles would've been recovered from the '72 war battlefield afterward.

[gibsonm]

And rebuilt to take the British L7 105 mm gun which has totally different characteristics to the original Soviet weapons on these two vehicles.

So if you play it in CM:SF you end up with a vehicle that might look OK but has different results to what the Israeli’s actually achieved. So as I said above:

Originally posted by gibsonm:

about as accurate as a “two bob watch”.

[MikeyD]

Recalling my yellowing "Military Modelling" back issues, I believe the T62 went into Israeli service without a gun change. One of two reasons for that. Either The T62's 1st generation APFSDS was roughly equivalent to the 105mm gun APDS or the T62 has such crappy ergonomics that the 105mm gun simply wouldn't fit the vehicle!

I also wonder how a CMSF T55 'aftermarket' APFSDS rounds would compare to a 1973 israeli 105mm APDS round. Could it substitute in a pinch? The 'fundamental gap' between the two guns may be less apparent nowadays when compared to later 120mm and 125mm smoothbore mnsters.

[John Kettler]

MikeyD,

My recollection is that the Israelis thought the gun was fine as it was. The same, though, couldn't be said regarding the then grossly inferior to the L7

D-10T 100mm gun on the T-55, hence the regunning.

Regards,

John Kettler

[MengCiao]

There isn’t.

That’s why these mods might look pretty but are about as accurate as a “two bob watch”.

I ran a small Oct 8 1973 (Israeli counterattack on the Southern Front)

style scenario. I gave the red/blue/Israelis T62M and the Red/Red Egyptians

T62(1972) and pretty bad motivation and training for both sides (since the fighting along the Suez was very far from what either side had trained for)...things may have been a bit unrealistic, but the unit behavior in the game was quite plausible with the Israelis doing a lot of reversing the the Egyptians "milling around"...Not a bad game experience.

An official module that covered say the Yom Kippur War could be pretty good.

And if Shock Force can cover WWII and modern stuff it ought to extend pretty easily to cover 1967 and 1973.

[Combatintman]

While we're on the subject ... why not Oman and Dhofar, Rhodesia, Angola, Falklands. These would all be great modules ... but they've got to be done properly.

[John Kettler]

Bahger,

Are you talking about THE HEIGHTS OF COURAGE, by Kahalani?

People,

The points about the differences between the D-10T on the T-55 and the vastly more capable L7 are well taken and spot on. I agree that the T-62 wasn't regunned because the Israelis found it perfectly serviceable, thanks to its the revolutionary 115 mm Rapira smoothbore very high velocity gun. The T-55, though, was campaigning a reworked, much lower velocity, ex WW II naval gun, and it wasn't even close to L7 standards. This was shown in combat when North Vietnamese T-54/T-55s tangled with 90mm armed South Vietnamese M-48s. The South Vietnamese shot the NVA tanks to pieces from such extreme ranges that radio intercepts revealed the crews thought they'd run into a minefield.

Regards,

John Kettler

[afreu]

Hi,CMSF is a wonder of a simulation, just look at the gap between it any other attempt at the modern era. CM is the only PC game I play because it is moving military history. But in my view CMSF is much under used in its present setting. Still hugely good fun…. but not used to its full potential.

I feel the same thing. Been a member of the OFP community since the start in 2001 and I've seen myself how it flourished because everybody was able to add own content to the game. The CM:SF engine has the same potential. There are endless possible battle scenarios that could be realised if it would be possible to add custom made models to the game. (Arab-Israeli Wars, Falklands War, a kind of WWIII Fulda Gap scenario, South African-Angolan Conflict, ...).

[M1A1TC]

According to BFC, users will never be able to add user-made models or change code in CM product line. All we can do is mod textures/sounds