How about more Profanity?

[Andreas]

When Robert Graves wrote his autobiography in the 1920s, the section on his experience in the trenches carried quite a bit of 'effing this', 'effing that', when he quoted NCO/OR types.

Took me a while to figure it out.

All the best

Andreas

[MikeyD]

It sounds like the line of demarcation between swearing then and swearing now is the difference between *F* and *MF*. From what I can tell the latter didn't come into prominence til the rise of black street culture of the 60s (and the high percentage of black infantry in Vietnam).

I've read one or two intersting - and very funny - articles on the subject by cultural anthropologists

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

It sounds like the line of demarcation between swearing then and swearing now is the difference between *F* and *MF*. From what I can tell the latter didn't come into prominence til the rise of black street culture of the 60s (and the high percentage of black infantry in Vietnam).

I've read one or two intersting - and very funny - articles on the subject by cultural anthropologists

MF was used in WW II by negroes; an officer of the 761st Tank Battalion mentions it in his memoirs. It was the first time he had ever heard the expression (he was white). When the US Army was officially integrated in the late 1940s it probably spread.

Bear in mind - this is in response to an earlier comment - that what made a veteran blush in 1944 was probably different than what would make him blush today. And of course it depends on his upbringing, etc. I'm not saying the "F" word was never used; some veterans' recollections talk about how it was used so much they came home and would ask mother to "pass the ****ing butter" at the the dinner table. But these things are all a matter of degree. We see it so often in movies, we're desensitized to it. I've heard female nurses at work use it more often than some soldiers. Times change, with it language.

Curse words in the American Civil War (and this could be the first CMX2 release for all we know) were remarkably different from what we would recognize today. Napoleon Dynamite would have made Civil War soldiers ears bleed. Watch Audie Murphy and Bill Mauldin in The Red Badge of Courage sometimes and tell me if their language is particularly offensive to modern ears. Not even close.

Somewhere between 1865 and 2005 the language evolved. 1944 marks a middle ground.

And I'll also add that where do young men learn to act? In many ways, from the movies. I've heard that Full Metal Jacket speech broken into bits and pieces and yelled at recruits here in Canada in various forms many times. It was likely the same, in part, in the 1940s. And we all know how often the F word was used in the movies then.

Anyway, much to consider. The call for "more profanity" in a 1940s era game is ill-considered, and really, ill-considered for any time period. Aside from the family friendliness that David points out, as any book publisher will tell you, profanity seems far more shocking and rude on the printed page, and the same goes for video games, especially ones with a few dozen sound files for speech and that's it. The first advice military writers get when doing books about their service is to cut out some of the swearing as unnecessary - see Jack Bickham's 38 MOST COMMON FICTION WRITING MISTAKES for a full explanation of why.

[Tagwyn]

Dear Battlefront: Please do not succumb to any impulse to turn BFC products into "Porn!!" We know that soldiers in combat are not paticularly inclined to discuss philosophy on a high level. WE dont need to be reminded of that by a game. PLEASE. Tag

[MikeyD]

I don't know if this is related to the topic at all, but I recall when Churchill first started flashing the "V for Victory" hand sign he was making the V gesture palm-in. Someone eventually whispered in his ear that in some parts of the north that hand gesture usually meant "up yours, Jack!", so the victory hand sign thereupon changed to the now familiar palm-out V sign (later termed the 'peace' sign by 60's hippies).

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

I don't know if this is related to the topic at all, but I recall when Churchill first started flashing the "V for Victory" hand sign he was making the V gesture palm-in. Someone eventually whispered in his ear that in some parts of the north that hand gesture usually meant "up yours, Jack!", so the victory hand sign thereupon changed to the now familiar palm-out V sign (later termed the 'peace' sign by 60's hippies).

The two finger salute reportedly dates back to Agincourt, but I think snopes.com debunked it. Too bad, it's a great story. Apparently, so the fiction goes, the French threatened to cut off the bow string fingers of any English archers they captured. When the English won the battle, the archers marched past the French prisoners and flashed their bowstring fingers. So the story goes. One of those stories you wish were true but probably aren't.

[aka_tom_w]

Peace man,

you know like....

it was only a suggstion

I will concede it is probably a good idea to make the game more "family friendly" than rude and profane.

-tom w

[Mord]

Originally posted by Tagwyn:

Dear Battlefront: Please do not succumb to any impulse to turn BFC products into "Porn!!" We know that soldiers in combat are not paticularly inclined to discuss philosophy on a high level. WE dont need to be reminded of that by a game. PLEASE. Tag

LOL I hope your kidding...I mean you're playing a "game" where the object is to kill and blow the living hell out of the other nation's men and equipment. Death, destruction and carnage are the underlying themes behind any historical wargame. A few cuss words aren't nearly so destructive as wanton violence and not nearly as racey as Midget Sex III: Horny Hobbits In Hotpants....I should know I rented it last night.

Tom: Simple solution to this. Make your own speech files. Or find some online that are adequate.

Mord.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Mord:

Tom: Simple solution to this. Make your own speech files. Or find some online that are adequate.

Mord. [/QB]

NOW thats good thinking!

Mord is the FIRST person in this thread to REMIND us that all the voice sounds and speech files are editable, so a player "could" make the game and the sounds a rude and profane as they want.

(At least that is the way it used to work in CMx1)

KISS

Keep it simple stupid!

Why didn't anyone else think of this?

OH NO!! it would be FAR to easy to heap abuse and ridicule on the original poster and suggestion than to just say this:

"Simple solution to this. Make your own speech files. Or find some online that are adequate."

-tom w

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mord:

Tom: Simple solution to this. Make your own speech files. Or find some online that are adequate.

Mord.

NOW thats good thinking!

Mord is the FIRST person in this thread to REMIND us that all the voice sounds and speech files are editable, so a player "could" make the game and the sounds a rude and profane as they want.

(At least that is the way it used to work in CMx1)

KISS

Keep it simple stupid!

Why didn't anyone else think of this?

OH NO!! it would be FAR to easy to heap abuse and ridicule on the original poster and suggestion than to just say this:

"Simple solution to this. Make your own speech files. Or find some online that are adequate."

-tom w [/QB]</font>

[Soddball]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MikeyD:

I don't know if this is related to the topic at all, but I recall when Churchill first started flashing the "V for Victory" hand sign he was making the V gesture palm-in. Someone eventually whispered in his ear that in some parts of the north that hand gesture usually meant "up yours, Jack!", so the victory hand sign thereupon changed to the now familiar palm-out V sign (later termed the 'peace' sign by 60's hippies).

The two finger salute reportedly dates back to Agincourt, but I think snopes.com debunked it. Too bad, it's a great story. Apparently, so the fiction goes, the French threatened to cut off the bow string fingers of any English archers they captured. When the English won the battle, the archers marched past the French prisoners and flashed their bowstring fingers. So the story goes. One of those stories you wish were true but probably aren't. </font>

[MikeyD]

...BFC products into "Porn!!"

Hmmm... that would kinda increases the scenario potential for "Space Lobsters"!

[Erik Springelkamp]

About the profanities of the US Para's.

I've read they were formed with a more than average number of released prisoners and tough guys who could choose to join the unit or face jail. Which could mean there was more than average swearing.

I have lived in Beek near Nijmegen, where the unit was deployed during Market Garden, and older villagers told me they were a rough bunch, many of which plundered wine cellers - there live some really rich people there - before charging at the enemy.

They showed no mercy with the Germans. Someone told me he saw one of them throwing a handgrenade between a group of German boys - hastily recruted schoolboys really - who had just surrendered.

Quite usefull as a fighting unit, but not characteristic for the army as a whole.

[Mord]

In Tom's defense I think he gets kicked around alot on here. I don't find anything wrong with his posts except maybe he's too nice when smacked. Nothing wrong with being a postive guy. He went through alot of trouble to dig for info and consolidate it back when there wasn't much to find. He's not nasty or prickly and takes most of what is said to him in good humor. He's alright in my book.

Sometimes Mikey I think Tom is your Rob1 and you're his Maximus.

Mord.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Mord:

In Tom's defense I think he gets kicked around alot on here. I don't find anything wrong with his posts except maybe he's too nice when smacked. Nothing wrong with being a postive guy. He went through alot of trouble to dig for info and consolidate it back when there wasn't much to find. He's not nasty or prickly and takes most of what is said to him in good humor. He's alright in my book.

Sometimes Mikey I think Tom is your Rob1 and you're his Maximus.

Mord.

You're right; he makes it easy, though. Seemed silly to complain that he was getting ill treated by discussing his suggestion - by claiming he wasn't making a suggestion.

Ugh, what a comparison though. Maximus. **shudders** Point taken.

[Dr.Love]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

Now I am not talking about really graituitous profanity and swearing for profanity sake...just a little more "realism" in the profanity in the voices on the sound track?

You know.... like Swearing and yelling in real life on the battlefield!

I could be wrong but I am guessing most grunts in most battlefield situations know how to yell a few choice words.

I am thinking of the kind of profanity one might expect in something like Full Metal Jacket which sounded like the right kind and the right amount of swearing to me

(I am still chuckling whenever I think of the first 20 mins of that movie!)

-tom w

Would this include racial slurs as well, or would we have to wait on an expansion pak for that?

[PseudoSimonds]

I don't care to what degree profanity was used back then or not. Guys had their legs blown off and faces burned but that isn't in CM either. If you really wanted more 'reality' you'd ask for a couple of hours worth of audio to be recorded so your soldiers could be constantly jabbering away with all the profanity you like. The point is that the voices in CM are just an audible clue for you to know what's going on with your troops. Profanity is superfluous to what CM is trying to do.

In a game that's all about immersion like WWII FPSs, I'd expect it, but not in CM. It's totally unecessary.

[Zalgiris 1410]

Originally posted by Mord:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tagwyn:

Dear Battlefront: Please do not succumb to any impulse to turn BFC products into "Porn!!" We know that soldiers in combat are not paticularly inclined to discuss philosophy on a high level. WE dont need to be reminded of that by a game. PLEASE. Tag

LOL I hope your kidding...I mean you're playing a "game" where the object is to kill and blow the living hell out of the other nation's men and equipment. Death, destruction and carnage are the underlying themes behind any historical wargame. A few cuss words aren't nearly so destructive as wanton violence and not nearly as racey as Midget Sex III: Horny Hobbits In Hotpants....I should know I rented it last night.

Tom: Simple solution to this. Make your own speech files. Or find some online that are adequate.

Mord. </font>

[Mord]

Originally posted by Zalgiris 1410:

Wow you can do that, make your own or download some from online, cool good solution, thanks Mord. :cool:

Yes atleast in CMBO to CMAK and I think Steve said sound files were still gonna be moddable for CMX2. Real simple to do. You can record your own voice if you want and use it in the game. You just replace the appropriate file with your new file, whatever that sound might be....there is a tad more to it. The bit rate and mhrtz need to match the game's standard and stuff but that is the gist.

Originally posted by Zalgiris 1410:

I'll refrain from discussing your disgusting choice in vidio viewing.

Trust me it's probably for the best.

Originally posted by Zalgiris 1410:

BTW Mord what did you say in a post somewhere above in this thread, WTF a Tom is getting smacked out, well der!

LOL I have no clue what you are saying here...sorry.

Mord.

[Salkin]

Mord , nice move backing up Tom . He has the right to his opinion as much as anyone else.

I too do alot of lame cheerleading but when you spend years making a game, like battlefront has, while always taking alot of flak about for instance PBEM, a positive word here and there is probably nice to hear too.

//Salkin

Tom don't listen to the surly people

[Canuck]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Curse words in the American Civil War (and this could be the first CMX2 release for all we know) were remarkably different from what we would recognize today. Napoleon Dynamite would have made Civil War soldiers ears bleed. Watch Audie Murphy and Bill Mauldin in The Red Badge of Courage sometimes and tell me if their language is particularly offensive to modern ears. Not even close.

MD the Red Badge of Courage was not a war but a movie. I'm not sure how you can make a connection that because there was no swearing in a 1950's movie there was also no swearing in the Civil War. It's one of those "the medium is the message" sort of things. I wasn't around at the time but I'm fairly confident that there was no swearing in 1950's entertainment at all, never mind in a war film. Heck what show was it that showed married couples sleeping in seperate beds? Did all married couples really sleep in seperate beds back then? Each generation applies it's own values to history. Compare an early John Wayne war movie to Saving Private Ryan. Same war but remarkably different vocabulary. The only thing that has changed is our acceptance of swearing in a public medium (although these days in America sometimes I wonder).

I did a search for **** on Dictionary.com and according to it, the term is actually quite old. I find it difficult to believe that soldiers of any era didn't sprinkle it liberally in their conversations.

Word History: The obscenity **** is a very old word and has been considered shocking from the first, though it is seen in print much more often now than in the past. Its first known occurrence, in code because of its unacceptability, is in a poem composed in a mixture of Latin and English sometime before 1500. The poem, which satirizes the Carmelite friars of Cambridge, England, takes its title, “Flen flyys,” from the first words of its opening line, “Flen, flyys, and freris,” that is, “fleas, flies, and friars.” The line that contains **** reads “Non sunt in coeli, quia gxddbov xxkxzt pg ifmk.” The Latin words “Non sunt in coeli, quia,” mean “they [the friars] are not in heaven, since.” The code “gxddbov xxkxzt pg ifmk” is easily broken by simply substituting the preceding letter in the alphabet, keeping in mind differences in the alphabet and in spelling between then and now: i was then used for both i and j; v was used for both u and v; and vv was used for w. This yields “fvccant [a fake Latin form] vvivys of heli.” The whole thus reads in translation: “They are not in heaven because they **** wives of Ely [a town near Cambridge].

[Michael Dorosh]

Here's some info from Mark Bando - chief nitpicker of the Band of Brothers, and probably THE expert on the 101st Airborne of WW II.

http://www.101airborneww2.com/bandofbrothers4.html

A few words re: the language in episode 2. One friend of mine who was a paratrooper in Battery 'B' of the 377th PFA Bn. actually cancelled his HBO service after viewing the first two episodes because he couldn't stand the amount of swearing. I frankly hadn't paid much attention, probably being calloused from 25 years of police work in Detroit. After hearing these reactions, I went back and re watched Episode 2, paying more attention to the language, and there ARE a considerable number of J.C.'s and 'F' bombs in there. In Dick Winters' first written account of the action, he has Popeye Wynn saying I'm sorry I goofed-off". Screenwriter John Orloff contacted Popeye and was able to elicit the info from him that he had actually used much stronger language. Thus was the dialogue changed to :"I'm sorry I ****ed-up". Regardless of the actual profanity level of the day, most WW2 vets I know will argue like all getout that there was LESS cursing in the 40's than is common today. At first I was skeptical, but after 30 years of hearing this from so many individuals, I tend to believe them. The film would have been just as good with less profanity. My friend historian Bill Warnock wrote me the following observation on this:

"The 'F' word was used by GIs of the WW2 era, but I think the BoB writers overdid it. They portray a degree of profanity typical of Vietnam and today, not WW2. This was (also) the case in 'Saving Private Ryan'. Several vets commented to me about this."

[Wallybob]

Concur. I'm a history geek, and I quite agree. Yes there was language, but by and large what was said was tame by today's standards.

[LarsS]

I found this thread and can't help to wonder if there actually is any profanity in the game. I've never noticed any (don't speak Arabic). But my Paradox edition has the PEGI profanity (or bad language, as they call it) rating on the box.

[Childress]

'Mooning' has an ancient pedigree, as well. According Josephus, a Legionary unleashed the Roman/Jewish war of the 1st century by exposing his arse from the parapet of the Temple during high holy days. His mates were much amused. BFC?