Tiring

[mav1]

I think the soldiers in cm tire too easy and take too long to recover. They don't recover when they walking, which you would do, to go running again. What does everyone else think?

[Michael Emrys]

I have to wonder how much walking and running you have done lately with 60 lbs of equipment. Been reading Joseph Balkoski's Omaha Beach lately and one of the points he brings up is that the early waves of men who landed could not even run the 300 yards to what meager cover there was because they were so heavily loaded down. Granted not every soldier in combat is carrying so much, but they aren't exactly in track suits either. My take on it is if BFC's recovery rate is off, it's not off by a whole lot. Remember also that most of the time, our cyber soldiers are not running across perfectly flat, smooth ground. Even when it says clear terain, it's only clear in a relative sense. It's still lumpy and tussocky and probably uphill no matter which way they are going.

Michael

[Andreas]

Michael's view appears absolutely right to me.

All the best

Andreas

[SgtMuhammed]

Another thing to remember is that part of fatigue in battle is due to the rush. Your heart is pounding even when moving slowly once things hit the fan. Everything feels heavier and you always feel like you are moving in thick mud. Mental exhaustion has much more impact than physical.

[J_Toe]

I have to wonder how much walking and running you have done lately with 60 lbs of equipment

But isn't some of the type of combat seen in CM meant to be sort of pre-planned i.e. leave all the non-essential gear? - CMX2 seems to take this into account though, with the variable weight loadings.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Michael's view appears absolutely right to me.

All the best

Andreas

Don't agitate Emrys, you German rise-and-fall-monkey! :mad:

[C'Rogers]

As another note BFC has said they will have an improved model for fatigue (taking the amount each soldier is carrying more into account I remember). I think the current model is largely accurate though tweaking could help a few flaws.

Actually at times the model is to generous. Assuming exhausted means barely having the energy to stand I think the idea of getting back to ready (completly fit) within a half-hour to an hour just wouldn't happen. While I think getting back to tired should be a perhaps a tad quicker, getting back to a completly recovered situation is near impossible when completly drained. Especially considering they won't come to a complete standstill and have a lot of other stress factors.

Based on the old model I would say that units that hit exhausted should get tagged like those that are routed, so they are much more likely to become tired quicker. But as they are going in a new direction of the model I imagine they will take care of many of the problems.

[John Kettler]

mav1,

May I respectfully suggest you find and read S.L.A. Marshall's little gem, THE SOLDIER'S LOAD AND THE MOBILITY OF A NATION, a book which squarely addresses the relationship between the total load (to include uniform and all kit plus weapons, food, water and ammo) borne by a soldier and his combat effectiveness? S.L.A.M. concludes that the cutoff point is 45 pounds total weight borne and cites multiple examples of men who could carry heavy loads, such as a .50 cal. MG tripod, up hill and down dale all day in the hot sun, but under combat stress were so weakened that they drowned in only a few feet of surf.

From what I've seen, the U.S. routinely overloads its soldiers, and I suspect the price for doing so is being paid day after day where our soldiers are thus encumbered. Sadly, all the bells and whistles of modern warfare (NVGs, night sights, individual radios, etc.--all requiring batteries) have only made matters worse, and the trend line for combat load is rather vertical for well into the future.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Cpl Steiner]

Whilst I understand and agree with the comments above on how tiring even basic physical activity is when dragging around 50lbs of gear, does it not seem strange to anyone that in CM exhausted men drop to their knees and start crawling towards their last objective? I would have thought crawling is even more tiring than walking.

Perhaps in CMx2 when a man reaches his physical limits and is not under any immediate threat he should just stop and sit on his pack for a few minutes to recover - kind of like break/rout behaviour, i.e. out of the player's hands. If under fire then I suppose they could crawl, but only to the nearest available cover.

When I'm commanding a platoon of US troops in CM:SF and have maybe pushed them too hard, I don't want to see them start crawling down some Syrian highway - I want them to disobey orders and stop for a rest! Of course I'm talking about total physical exhaustion here, not just a bit of fatigue.

[ August 10, 2006, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Cpl Steiner ]

[Cpl Steiner]

To add to my post above, I have a strong feeling that the "crawling" men in CM are actually just abstactions to show men who are very tired and walking at a stumbling or staggering pace. If in CMx2 we actually see men staggering, occasinally falling, picking themselves up, staggering some more etc., then I will be happy. Think of the closing scenes from "Black Hawk Down" when the soldiers have to run back to base and you get the picture.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Michael's view appears absolutely right to me.

Oh, come on. My sig is filled up. This is another imperialist German trick to dominate my sig by crowding the others out, isn't it?

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by C'Rogers:

Actually at times the model is to generous. Assuming exhausted means barely having the energy to stand I think the idea of getting back to ready (completly fit) within a half-hour to an hour just wouldn't happen. While I think getting back to tired should be a perhaps a tad quicker, getting back to a completly recovered situation is near impossible when completly drained. Especially considering they won't come to a complete standstill and have a lot of other stress factors.

Based on the old model I would say that units that hit exhausted should get tagged like those that are routed, so they are much more likely to become tired quicker.

All good points.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

From what I've seen, the U.S. routinely overloads its soldiers...

From what I have seen and read, the grunts in OIF were heavily overloaded. But I notice that the ones on routine patrols since look like they are carrying much lighter loads. Some photos of Marines doing urban patrolling were particularly striking. Their kit seemed to consist of weapon, uniform (sometimes abbreviated), helmet, flakjacket, ammo belt, canteen, and not much else. Looked like they had been doing some effective thinking about mobility.

Michael

[Battlefront.com]

The big difference is the guys aren't stuck in those body bags that someone put sleeves and legs on to make more user friendly. I think they call them MOP suits

I think, if anything, the fatigue modeling in CMx1 was a tad bit generous. As others have said, if a unit becomes Exhausted it should be pretty much akin to Broken or Routed. Meaning, the chances are that you won't get use of the unit back (at least not offensively) within the confines of the scenario being played. Gamers often wonder why a battle for a town only took them 20 minutes when in real life it took 4 attacks over a day and a half. Well... it probably wasn't because the attackers were sitting around totally rested and with plenty of ammo on top of it!

Steve

[C'Rogers]

As someone who grew up running a lot (in light sneakers and light clothing) who tried a few runs in full military gear in college (minus the body armor, maybe 10 runs or so of a few miles) the biggest problem was not actually the load I was carrying but two things that really can't be changed and haven't been mentioned.

Boots and the uniform.

Running with boots really screwed up everything. As you get tired your stride naturally shortens and the boots just exacerbate this. I would of gladly taken another 20 pounds in the backback if I could of replaced the boots with shoes (which for a soldier is obviously impossible).

On hot days the full body uniform was also a huge problem. Heat saps the energy really quick and while modern unifroms are much better than their predeccesors it still a lot of clothing to have on in a stressful, hot, intense situation.

[Wendigo]

As I haven't had any combat experience (thank goodness) my experiences are limited to military training and airsoft.

While the load I'm carrying when playing airsoft (uniform, gun, lbv) is much lighter that I carried while in training I tire much faster. Even when you're not in any danger (risk of rolling ankle excluded) being constantly on alert and scanning your surroundings even when just moving. Add to that adrenaline and need to constantly adapt to changing situations and energy reserves just disappear. Brain uses humongous amounts of glucose if it is properly stressed in addition to muscles.

[Michael Emrys]

I think we are getting close to an answer here. I notice just in my daily walks, if I am tense for any reason, I tire out immediately, whereas if I am relaxed, I can go on and on for a goodly distance. The reason, I have decided throuth self-observation, is that in normal exercise, my muscles tense to contract, then relax while the opposing muscles do their work. The body is adapted to this kind of tension/relaxation exercise and functions efficiently in that way. But when I am tense, my muscles never relax, even when there is no need for them to be tense. It also makes the opposing muscles work harder. About 30 seconds of this and I am ready to sit down. Someone younger and fitter could stretch that a lot, but even they must have limits. So it doesn't surprise me that men in combat will quickly be running on their reserves of strength...and just as quickly be running out of them.

Michael

[Andreas]

Originally posted by J_Toe:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I have to wonder how much walking and running you have done lately with 60 lbs of equipment

But isn't some of the type of combat seen in CM meant to be sort of pre-planned i.e. leave all the non-essential gear? </font>

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

...The reason, I have decided throuth self-observation, is that in normal exercise, my muscles tense to contract, then relax while the opposing muscles do their work. The body is adapted to this kind of tension/relaxation exercise and functions efficiently in that way. But when I am tense, my muscles never relax, even when there is no need for them to be tense. It also makes the opposing muscles work harder. About 30 seconds of this and I am ready to sit down. Someone younger and fitter could stretch that a lot, but even they must have limits. So it doesn't surprise me that men in combat will quickly be running on their reserves of strength...and just as quickly be running out of them.

Michael

I think this perhaps speaks to the point or is related to that point Col Glenn made in the other thread (body armor thread) re- training / fitness.

[J Ruddy]

Yup - When I was in basic, some days I could run forever with my ruck on and others I'd feel like I was going to die. But then some days we'd be doing PT with a medic who would simply jog along with us and others, the ex-SSF Sgt who reminded me of a meaner version of that gunny in Full Metal Jacket.

The absolute worst experience I've ever had was fully geared up 100 meter wind sprints interrupted by sit ups and push ups. I can't imagine sprinting across open ground, diving for cover, getting back up, sprinting again all the while being under fire. I can see how sprinting units could easily get pinned.

[Dirtweasle]

AIUI CMSF will not be modelling national training / stamina differneces exactly.

In other words, again as I understand it which may be flawed, Syrian units of "regular" experience will have same stamina and capabiites as US units of "regular" experience.

I have a sense that US regular army units have better leadership and training including physical training than some other nations do. Is this just a flawed notion based on not knowing much about Syrian training and taking for granted that our troops have superior training? I don't know.

But if true it occured to me that superior training ought to mean a US regular preform better then a regular of some other nation that does not train their troops as well.

Am just thinking out loud, am more than happy to understand how this will work in the game better.

[J Ruddy]

Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

AIUI CMSF will not be modelling national training / stamina differneces exactly.

In other words, again as I understand it which may be flawed, Syrian units of "regular" experience will have same stamina and capabiites as US units of "regular" experience.

I have a sense that US regular army units have better leadership and training including physical training than some other nations do. Is this just a flawed notion based on not knowing much about Syrian training and taking for granted that our troops have superior training? I don't know.

But if true it occured to me that superior training ought to mean a US regular preform better then a regular of some other nation that does not train their troops as well.

Am just thinking out loud, am more than happy to understand how this will work in the game better.

Maybe the US troops are trained better, but acclimatization comes into play. Canadians, Finlanders, Swedes, Russians etc... historically tend to do better in winter warfare than say, Cubans... The same argument can be made for desert warfare. You can train in Arizona all you want, but unless you grew up in Syria the locals will probably have a natural edge over you.

I saw a study on Inuit - they tested Inuit against people of European descent by stripping them down and sending them outside into the -30 weather. The Inuit's' internal core temp didn't drop for a much longer period, and then it dropped much less than the European descendants. They also had them hold their hands in ice & water for as long as possible. Again there was no competition the natives won hands down. (pun intended)

Based on physiological evidence they concluded it was partially genetic and partially a conditioned response by the bodies.

[hellfish]

I'd think that by and large you'd be able to get away with making most, if not all, US units veteran or even crack. Nearly the entire Army, including the Guard, has been through Iraq at least once now and nearly all of them probably saw some kind of combat. Hell, even just being in a combat zone if you don't even engage in a firefight is excellent training.

When my company got back from Kuwait in 2000 we never fired a round in anger, but we were probably one of the very best companies in the entire Guard for the next year because we'd spent so much time doing live fire training and running real world missions.

Of course personnel turnover can and does happen, but I'd venture to guess that at least half the soldiers in any given Stryker infantry squad have been in combat at least once.

[Imperial Grunt]

Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

I'd think that by and large you'd be able to get away with making most, if not all, US units veteran or even crack. Nearly the entire Army, including the Guard, has been through Iraq at least once now and nearly all of them probably saw some kind of combat. Hell, even just being in a combat zone if you don't even engage in a firefight is excellent training.

I disagree. I have seen some units that did not have an offensive mindset and had a victim's mentality from CO down to brand new private. The link to the trailer illustrates this to a degree.

Regarding relative mobility, the Syrian home field advantage is huge in my opinion, especially in an urban environment. The Syrian's should be able to use pre-established "rat-lines" and be able to navigate streets and alleys more quickly than their US counterparts.

Even though civilians are not being represented, I think an abstraction by making it a little more difficult to spot Syrian infantry that is hiding would be a good feature. Conversely, it should be difficult for US troops to hide. Some civvie will spot them and give some kind of signal or cell phone call to report them.

Regarding the MOPP suits, they did suck, but like anything, you get used to them. It was great to get rid of them and wear normal utilities. Given the chemical arsenal that Syria has, are chemical weapons going to be in-play? Are US troops gonna be wearing MOPP suits? the war tapes

[ August 11, 2006, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Imperial Grunt ]

[hellfish]

Originally posted by Imperial Grunt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

I'd think that by and large you'd be able to get away with making most, if not all, US units veteran or even crack. Nearly the entire Army, including the Guard, has been through Iraq at least once now and nearly all of them probably saw some kind of combat. Hell, even just being in a combat zone if you don't even engage in a firefight is excellent training.

I disagree. I have seen some units that did not have an offensive mindset and had a victim's mentality from CO down to brand new private. The link to the trailer illustrates this to a degree.</font>