British Module

[EarlofWarwick]

Outstanding! I'm an American, but I'm a chronic anglophile, so the prospect of a British module is very exciting.

(How bad of an anglophile am I? In CM, I never play as the US --always as the British. Is that bad? Do I need therapy of some kind?)

[rudel.dietrich]

I do hope the Germans make it in at some point.

As the most significant military and economic force in Europe it would make sense.

And German hardware is very widely used as Steve has pointed out.

[Sequoia]

If we get the British do we get the Supacat?

Now there's a fun vehicle.

http://www.supacat.com/mod%20cat%20page.htm

[Challenger 2]

I do hope the Germans make it in at some point.

As the most significant military and economic force in Europe it would make sense.

And German hardware is very widely used as Steve has pointed out.

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I don't think that is true at all, and if it was then it doesn't matter much as Britian and America seem to be the only countries that will properly comit forces to the Middle East.

[hellfish]

The new LAV III variants they are playing around with are very close to some of the Stryker variants. And they have the Stryker MGS on order so that will be identical. [/QB]

Actually, they canceled their MGS order. The MMEV is still a go, though.

Also, check this out:

Canada is rumored to have just purchased 80 Leopard 2A4s from the Germans and leased 20 Leo2A6Ms for Afghanistan. It sounds like the rumors are true this time, too!

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/bg-leopard2-afghan.htm

Rumours emerged on 10 Feb 2007 that Canada was tank shopping in Germany. Media reports [1] said that Canada had negotiated the lease of 20 Leopard 2A6M tanks from Bundeswehr stocks and purchased 80 more older Leopard 2A4s. The newer 2A6Ms, which have add-on mine-protection, would be sent to Kandahar. Less well-protected Leopard 2A4s would go to Canada for training purposes. Both models differ considerably from serving Leopard C2s.

Since the latest Leopard model [2] cannot be delivered quickly, the 2A6M was leased instead – mine protection includes added floor plates, blast-resistant crew seats, plus revised ammunition stowage. The basic vehicle is a Leopard 2A6 [3] with third-generation composite armour (similar in both shape and composition to the heavy MEXAS add-on armour kits applied to the Canadian Forces Leopard C2s sent to Kandahar).

The older Leopard 2A4 has a completely different turret with more upright armour. The gun is also different. Both 2A4s and 2A6Ms have Rheinmetall 120mm smooth bore guns but the 2A6 gun barrel is 1.3m longer. This gives the gun higher muzzle velocity (more useful in tank battles than in the direct-fire support role). Secondary armament for both Leopard models is two 7.62mm machineguns – presumably C6s for 2A4s and German MG3s [4] for 2A6Ms.

This lease/purchase surprised Canadian media but deployed Leopards are wearing out fast and it may be simpler/cheaper to replace than repair. In light of the German refusal to send troops to Kandahar, it galls to see Canadian defence dollars building up Angela Merkel’s treasury. Still, needs must and the deal means quick delivery, spares, maintenance software etc.

[Battlefront.com]

ack! When did they cancel the MGS order? I hadn't heard that.

The Canadian forces are similar more from our point of view than the player's. However, the similarity from the player's point of view is one reason why a stand alone Canadian Module is not a good idea. It's another reason why I'm envisioning them being "bundled" with the Germans and the Dutch.

The Germans have been slowly becoming more and more involved in military operations. There was a time when they never deployed outside of Germany, or to such a small extent (like Gulf War One) that it was insignificant. Over the past 15 years this has been progressively changing. Although the forces in Afghanistan are still operating under large restrictions, they are combat troops and they are in a "hot" combat environment. Unlike previous deployments such as SFOR and KFOR comittments. It doesn't take much imagination to see how the next time there is a crisis that they would take the next logical step and have a more-or-less free form military part in a military operation. Especially if Germany itself was targeted.

Yes, we will toss a few more Red Forces things into each Module, though the bulk will be in the first one with the Marines.

Steve

[hellfish]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

ack! When did they cancel the MGS order? I hadn't heard that.

IIRC when they decided to keep the Leo1 in service.

[Cpl Steiner]

On a related note, will it be possible to simulate joint operations between allied national forces? If so, can you mix Blue and Red forces on the same team?

Example 1: US forces come to the aid of a British unit that has been ambushed and surrounded.

Example 2: US elite cadre squads support the assault of a friendly Russian-equipped force (e.g. Northern Alliance/Iraqi Army).

[flamingknives]

Fromt what Steve has said before, blue forces can be mixed, but blue and red forces cannot. I could be wrong though.

[Nicdain]

I'd like Italians would make it in, too. In effect, they have deployed with several men and equipment in all recent theatres: Somalia, Bosnia, Afghanistan, Iraq and Lebanon.

I don't recall Dutch being deployed in so many places...

[hellfish]

Dutch were in Iraq (still may be?) and are in Afghanistan.

I'd like to see the Spanish too. They've got the nice Leopards, some cool cavalry armored cars and their own IFV. Would dovetail well with a German module, I think, especially since they use MG3s and G36 small arms.

[Capt. Toleran]

Speaking of Brits, here are our friends across the pond in action in Afghanistan:

http://www.liveleak.com/player.swf?autostart=true&token=92d6a_4207&p=36335&s=1

[Battlefront.com]

Correct, Blue can be mixed with Blue, Red with Red. No mixing of Red and Blue.

I would like to see the Italians and Spanish in too, but both are pretty large on their own (especially Italy).

Steve

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Originally posted by Nicdain:

I'd like Italians would make it in, too. In effect, they have deployed with several men and equipment in all recent theatres: Somalia, Bosnia, Afghanistan, Iraq and Lebanon.

I don't recall Dutch being deployed in so many places...

That is entirely the fault of your recollection, I fear. I name: Bosnia, Kosovo, Eritrea, Iraq, Afghanistan, Congo (puny), Macedonia, Cyprus, Cambodia and a bucket load of minimal participations. The Dutch are generally very eager to participate in UN or NATO missions.

But more importantly, we have exciting vehicles.

[mazex]

Hmm, if you throw in the Dutch and German forces then you might as well add add some basic Swedish forces too Swedish troops are in Afganistan at least... Even though the Swedes have been very silent the last 200 years you should make no misstake. Before that we have fought more wars than most - starting with the Viking pillaging of most of Europe

Swedish semi "freebees" that are part of the Dutch and German arsenal:

Strv122 (one of the best Leo2 mods)

CV90 (Swedish IFV used by the Dutch)

Patria XA180/XA203 (quite similar to the Patria XA188 used by the Dutch)

Those are the more important vehicles of the swedish army so just add the Minimi (called Ksp90 in Sweden) and the FNC 80 (AK5 in Sweden - a bit more niched weapon Belgium, Sweden and Indonesia uses it). The AT4 is Swedish as well and they ought to be in the USMC module? How about the swedish Carl Gustav RAAWS - will it be included in CMSF - or is it only used by the Rangers?

Hmm, Norway uses the Leo2 and the CV90 too... Add them as well to enable a Swedish invasion of Norway

/Mazex

[ February 18, 2007, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: mazex ]

[Nicdain]

That is entirely the fault of your recollection

Yes, Elmar, probably I was too overconfident about my memories...

Anyway, this doesn't mean that Italian army has less importance to make it into the game.

The problem, for what Steve says, is the effort to model it.

But more importantly, we have exciting vehicles. [big Grin]

Well, to tell the truth, you have also exciting girls! (Especially in Utrecht)

[flamingknives]

For the Swedes, minimi is already in, both with the US and British forces.

AT4 is used by the US Army (M136) and also the British Army (ILAW). It comes in different flavours so you might have to model a few. If Canadians are in then the Carl-Gustav should be available too.

[Battlefront.com]

I love the thought of having the Sweedes simulated, but let's be realistic... they are a peace keeping type force only. They would not be going in as part of an invasion force. Not unless something VERY dramatic happened within Swedish government and culture. They'd also have to get fast tracked into NATO since that's what the story is based on I don't see any of this happening.

To back up a sec, here are the "likely suspects" for a NATO type invasion:

Canada

France (in our backstory, France would revert to full NATO membership)

Germany

Italy

Spain

UK

USA

I would guess Greece would be involved with logistical and naval support only. Turkey... it's hard to say. They would at least provide logistical support, but I am not sure they would be able to use ground troops.

The other nations would likely act in some way, shape, or form. However, I am not sure how significant any of their contributions would be on their own. Denmark would certainly be there, probably Norway and Portugal too. But their contributions would likely be limited (at least based on previous deployments). Poland would absolutely be there, as would a number of other former Warsaw Pact countries, though I am not sure what their level of ground troops would be (I am going to guess mostly special forces and logistics). The smaller nations, like Luxembourg, Iceland, Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania would likey lend logistical support only or other non-frontline type forces.

Steve

[Michael Dorosh]

Given Canada's inability to provide a brigade to the first Gulf War in 1991, and current operational tempo, I'd think Canadian participation in any future offensive actions unlikely. Then again, no one counted on a second World War either.

I think even a fictional modern Canadian game would leave me cold, especially if it was production time taken from a ... you guessed it ... Second World War version of CM.

Still, it would probably be seen as useful in some way for our actual military types who are training for and fighting in Afghanistan.

However - with the focus so heavy on "three block war" stuff, I don't see CM being particularly useful for simulating two of the three blocks. I did have a blast with modern Canadian stuff in Operation Flashpoint, though. I just don't see anyone getting any kicks playing the Taliban (or for that matter being able to research anything like order of battle....)

[Battlefront.com]

I agree that the Canadians would have to do some heavy shifting of resources to get a significant force in the field. But this is true of every nation, including the US. Nobody is ready right now to put more forces in the field. Remember the French backing out, and then sorta backing back in, to the Lebanon peace keeping force last year. The only two nations in the West that are prepared for large, sustained ops are the US and the UK. However, they have exceeded their peacetime capacity for such ops and now are, in a way, in the same boat as the rest of Europe, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.

Remember, the Module concept is designed to not screw up Titles (major releases). If there is a conflict, the Title takes priority. We're not stupid enough to put a small priced, modest selling product ahead of a larger prices big seller

Steve

[Michael Dorosh]

Glad to hear it. One never knows; perhaps home grown terrorism like the resurgence of the FLQ might prompt more "interesting" situations for the Canadian military, or an Al Qaeda attack on Toronto soccer moms or somefink. One should never say never I guess.

[SSgt Viljuri]

Originally posted by mazex:

[QB] Hmm, if you throw in the Dutch and German forces then you might as well add add some basic Swedish forces too

If we get the Swedes, will the game simulate hairnets, union power and surströmming?

All the best

SSgt Viljuri

More seriously, even a German deployment of their own is highly questionable, still. Don't you know anything how things really work between Trans-Atlantic partners and their organizations (NATO, EU) nowadays?

More likely scenario than a direct German participation is a ERRF contingent involvement, like that consisting of German, Dutch and Finnish soldiers....

Besides I want to have a try with Patria AMOS system....

[mazex]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

I love the thought of having the Sweedes simulated, but let's be realistic... they are a peace keeping type force only. They would not be going in as part of an invasion force. Not unless something VERY dramatic happened within Swedish government and culture. They'd also have to get fast tracked into NATO since that's what the story is based on I don't see any of this happening.

C'mon - don't go realistic on me How many nations with 9 million citizens produces that much cool military hardware? That has to be considered as a bonus that could null out some of the "We have not gone to war for 200 years"?

Somewhat seriously (even though I realize that Sweden is a very unlikely candidate for inclusion), Sweden has troops under NATO command in Afganistan and Kosovo. We have a Corvette on patrol duty outside of Lebanon right now... Sure those are really peackeeping troops - even thogh one of the swedish soldiers i Afganistan was killed a while ago.

The real candidate that could warrant some kind of an inclusion is the "Nordic Battlegroup" that is beeing formed right now to be active from 2008. It is a EU battlegroup set up that will be able to relocate to any hotspot in the world (accept subartic) within 10 days. It is really one of the first steps to a real military cooperation based on the EU. The NBT consists of a mechanzed batallion (2500 soldiers), where Sweden supplies 2100, Finland 200, Norway 150 and Estonia 50. It will mainly include mechanized infantry companies based on CV90, but MBT:s (Leo 2) and even JAS-39 fighter-bombers are planned for inclusion in the NBT if needed. That makes it a definate fighting unit and not merely a peacekeeping Patria XA180 equiped "police force". The NBT has been rather controversial in Sweden as it definateley is set up for combat and not merely "border patrol duty".

In a module where the EU supplies forces to a hot-spot like Syria in the future, it could be up for inclusion.

Here is a video from a live exercise for the Nordic Battlegroup that is rather cheesy but it includes interesting hardware like:

JAS39 Gripen

STRV122 (Swedish Leo 2 modification)

CV9040 (40mm bofors CV90)

CV9030 (The one with urban camo)

AMOS (CV90 based "intelligent" 120mm mortar - co-project with Finland)

Archer (Top modern "intelligent" 15,5cm artillery - Canada, Australia etc are potential buyers)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2695960670143112040&q=battlegroup

As I'm already off topic - here is a rather funny video that is not faked where a CV90 is a few inches from crashing into a civilian truck in northern Sweden during an exercice...

/Mazex

[Uberpickle]

Well having NATO forces modded in eventually would be very cool but, I would like to see an Israeli module and a Turkish module as well. Maybe ill push it and ask for an Egyptian one as well

[PSY]

Originally posted by mazex:

The NBT consists of a mechanzed batallion (2500 soldiers), where Sweden supplies 2100, Finland 200, Norway 150 and Estonia 50.

Just out of curiosity why the huge imbalance in troops. Is the Swedish army that much bigger than the others?