How does C2 work?

[Cpl Steiner]

I have been trying to understand how C2 works in the game and have done some experiments.

For a platoon of dismounted US infantry with no company or battalion HQ on the map, the following was observed:

1. When a squad is moving, it loses radio and PDA contact with the platoon HQ and gets a red light on the platoon HQ C2 link but a green light on the company and battalion C2 links. Presumably then the lights do not mean that the squad is in contact with the company and battalion HQs but rather that there is a valid C2 link between the squad's platoon HQ and the higher HQs but that the squad is currently out of contact with the platoon HQ (and thus the company and battalion HQ as well.

2. When the squad stops moving the PDA C2 link reappears immediately but the radio C2 link takes a short time longer to be re-established. Nothing wrong there as far as I can tell.

3. If the platoon HQ moves, the radio and PDA C2 methods with the company and battalion HQs remain connected and there are green lights on all the C2 links. I'm not sure this is logically correct. Surely they should disappear for the same reason they do for the moving squad.

4. When the platoon HQ is moving, a squad's radio C2 method with its platoon HQ goes off but the PDA method stays on and the C2 links remain all green. This is probably OK as I think the game will take account of there being only PDA contact even though the C2 link is green. Presumably morale remains high because the squad knows where its HQ is, but the squad would find it harder to call in fire support as they can't raise their HQ on the radio.

So, from the above, I think there is an issue concerning moving HQs and their off-map parent HQs. Surely the radio and PDA links should be broken in this case, and when the HQ stops moving the radio C2 link should reconnect slower than the PDA link? What game effect it would have not being broken I don't know, as the HQ's own units are already treated as being out of radio contact with the HQ and therefore with higher HQs too. However, for consistency, I think it needs to be looked at.

[thewood]

Excellent post. I really can't figure out C2 and what it all means and when its working.

[ChrisND]

Something that really bothers me is that dismounted JTACs have zero comms.

???

[Mishga]

All I know is that C2 is one of the reasons we cannot buy our own troops for QB. Pity really.

I would rather do away with C2 and choose my troops but that's just me...meh.

I never served in any army, I never went toe to track with enemy tanks...So what do I care about imaginary links of communication? I just want to have more fun than I already am having...greedy ain't I

[Mord]

Originally posted by Mishga:

All I know is that C2 is one of the reasons we cannot buy our own troops for QB.

Is this the same reason force selection in the scenario editor is such a pain to pick through?

I miss being able to scroll through a list of single teams and vehicles to choose from. Much easier to view in the preview that way.

Mord.

[Mishga]

Guess so, Buddy.

Gotta have the right TO&E in this here man's army these days.

[Raptor 2101]

whats irritating me realy is the C2 "target-spreading"

Example: you have an JTAC unit placed in an Recon-Stryker. The ReconStryker can see 5 units, the JTAC none of them, after 5 minutes nothing changes ... if i disembark the JTACs the only get two targes...

i can't see a reason why a spotting unit shouldn't use the electronik in a vehicle...

second i advanced with 3 MGS-Strikers in an urban terain, one at a spotting/shoter point, two hiding in a streat advancing slowly... at one time they advanced a backyard with som enemy and they doesn't get them. the overwath MGS see them but doens't get a realy good shot position and the other strykers didn't even geht a "darker" Symbol... where is the sense of C2 if there is no such information like "watch 3 oclock, there are enemys) with the RPDAS and the FBCB2 thease information should spread about the vehicles very quickly

[Swift]

I agree that we need a better guide on how C2 works. I totally disagree with it being removed. The "imaginary links of communication" are one of the best features of the game as it removes "borg spotting" and adds friendly fire to the game.

However I think it needs to be tweaked or debugged. As it is now units in a vehicle might have better intel then the vehicle (and that is with a team member in the commanders seat).

[birdstrike]

Same here. I love the whole C2/relative spotting concept, but it is confusing at times and I'd appreciate if there were some sort of "guide to C2 for dummies".

And I'd also like to second that units inside a vehicle should better share information with the vehicle, for example as it seems right now we don't get much of an advantage to leave a JTAC inside a B-FIST.

[Splinty]

One of the reasons it takes some time for multiple vehicles to see the same target if only one has direct LOS is because the vehicle with direct LOS has to manually input the target in his FBCB2 and then it needs to go through the whole network to get to the other vehicles. Under fire this can take awhile, if the spotting vehicle even bothers to input it in the first place.

[MikeyD]

C2 is one of those reasons why the manual could've been 600 pages instead of 200!

Command and control was fairly straightfoward in CMx1. Now we've got soldiers carrying cel phones and personal digital assistants! I've only recently started paying attention to C2. Now that the game engine's stabilized (v1.03 is great) we can finally start concentrating on the subtle stuff.

[thewood]

I'd just like to an up to date description of the impact on orders and such if a unit is out of comms. Right now it seems it is either completely in control or out.

[JohnO]

Originally posted by Splinty:

One of the reasons it takes some time for multiple vehicles to see the same target if only one has direct LOS is because the vehicle with direct LOS has to manually input the target in his FBCB2 and then it needs to go through the whole network to get to the other vehicles. Under fire this can take awhile, if the spotting vehicle even bothers to input it in the first place.

I agree with you Splinty, could the unit attributes contribute to the problems if the experience level, physical condition, and morale have on the leader, as well as being suppressed by enemy fire, trying to get that information out to his higher up? Just a thought.

JohnO

[thewood]

I have reread the manual, and its still seems very vague at what the results of good or bad C2 are. Let me summarize and see if its correct:

- FOW at the unit level - info sharing

- Unit "jumpiness" (morale issues?)

- Calling support (arty air)

Are there any others. Can I issue commands or are there command delays?

[Chelco]

Great thread.

I wonder how much of these would influence the reaction of the AI Syrians given their poor C2 channels?

Bump.

[JohnO]

Originally posted by thewood:

I have reread the manual, and its still seems very vague at what the results of good or bad C2 are. Let me summarize and see if its correct:

- FOW at the unit level - info sharing

- Unit "jumpiness" (morale issues?)

- Calling support (arty air)

Are there any others. Can I issue commands or are there command delays?

I agree about the manual being vague I'm still trying to find about the medic and how and why it does what it suppose to do, how can C2 be tested?

JohnO

[Mishga]

I am still trying to find out if troops will pick up buddies weapons and equipment and share ammo with other squads.

Nothing in the manual describes it but other players have commented that it has happened.

[thewood]

I have tried testing C2, but it seems like there are a lot of variable, so its hard to get a definitive answer. I'm still trying.

[Battlefront.com]

Next week, after the v1.03 patch has sunk in, I'll take some time to talk about C2 in more detail. The short of it is that Relative Spotting is derrived from C2, so the most obvious game effect is that some units are aware of more than they spotted on their own, other units are less aware. C2 is the primary reason.

This has huge ramifications since US units can usually shoot at anything in their LOS because someone has spotted it and reported it (voice or FBCB2) to other units. Syrian units generally can only shoot at what they have individually spotted. Given enough time all units, C2 or not, would be able to see all enemy units within LOS. However, when seconds count this theory doesn't work out so well because units are lost, pinned, routed, etc. before this time comes around.

Artillery and Air Support are two more obvious benefits of C2. Try having a Squad with no C2 link to its Platoon HQ, or the Platoon HQ not having a link to the Company, and see how well support calls are responded to

Steve

[thewood]

But Steve, are there no command penalties for being out of C2. Now we seem to have gone from Borg spotting to Borg Movement.

[MirabelleBenou]

Hi there !

Just a little bump

[Martin Krejcirik]

Borg Movement is probably difficult to prevent, but I would like something done with Area fire.

The problem is: some unit sees an enemy unit. You select another friendly unit, but it cannot see the same enemy yet. So you order area fire instead.

I think the area fire should be allowed only on the acion spots where an enemy unit was previously seen. If you order area fire on a 'clean' action spot, it should be delayed, or not allowed at all if out of C2. This would represent order coming from higher-ups. Why would a unit itself fire on somthing, if it cannot see anything suspicious there ?

[zwobot]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

This has huge ramifications since US units can usually shoot at anything in their LOS because someone has spotted it and reported it (voice or FBCB2) to other units.

Does this mean contacts that are not withing LOS of other units will not be promoted?

Example:

Squad 1 is on a hill and spots an enemy unit.

Squad 2 is behind the ridge and has no LOS to the place where the spotted enemy unit is.

Will Squad 2 eventually "see" the contact that Squad 1 spotted (but not be able to fire at them because of no LOS obviously)?

I dont have time to test this out now in the scenario editor.

[thewood]

Borg movement actually was somewhat minimized in previous wargames by delays, depending on how good C2 is. Even CM1 had this and it seems to add a realistic flavor. Being able to disable or enable as an option is good.

In CMSF, C2 seems to have only a very mild effect.

[Cpl Steiner]

CMx1 command delays should be brought back as soon as possible for both WEGO and RT play. All units should have a command delay modifier based on their experience and C2, just as in CMx1. Voice-based comms gear such as radios should probably reduce the delay more than text-based ones such as PDAs (IMHO).

C2 differences between the US and Syrian sides would be well represented by a greater delay in Syrian forces responding to orders given by the player (or the AI for that matter).

Keeping your HQs stationary as much as possible so as to maximize C2 to the units below them in the chain of command should have a tangible effect to the player, in the form of reduced command delays.