A request: printable manual

[thewood]

You find that a lot around here. Beta testers acting like they are part of the company until called on it and then retreating to the "just a customer like you" position.

[Lurker765]

If BFC did not want the responsibility of picking up the pieces then they should not have partnered with Paradox or whoever. You want the benefits of signing with a distribution partner then you take the risk of being responsible for their actions.

It is BFC's product in the end. They are where the buck stops.

[abneo3sierra]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

I suspect I’m actually coming down with a mid case of “Stockholm Syndrome” as being on the Beta test team we get to see a whole heap of stuff the BTS/ BFC is trying to do but they just keep getting slammed by people who bought the product from Paradox or whoever and then want BTS / BFC to pick up the pieces.

And if they respond then they have to be aware of the PR consequences.

Any way I’m on a staff now but my last Corps job was Regt 2IC.

Cheers.

Completely understood sir.

Stay safe, and from what I can tell, it is a fine product.

[gibsonm]

Sorry but I’m not retreating from anything I’ve said, just putting it in context (just in case no one noticed that I didn’t sign it as Steve, Charles, Madmatt, etc.).

The alternative is that no one responds and then people just complain that no one is responding.

Up to the reader

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by Lurker765:

If BFC did not want the responsibility of picking up the pieces then they should not have partnered with Paradox or whoever. You want the benefits of signing with a distribution partner then you take the risk of being responsible for their actions.

It is BFC's product in the end. They are where the buck stops.

Well if you want the best service, buy the blessed thing from BFC.

That way you’d avoid the patch lags and everything else that seems to happen when a 3rd party is involved.

[Melnibone]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

Well if you want the best service, buy the blessed thing from BFC.

I bought the deluxe BFC version. Why that matters so much who knows. I now have an out of date printed manual and a pdf version - which to my knowledge has never been updated (v1.01 it says on mine). Even if it has it is an unfriendly format for printing. Don't you get it?

[Lurker765]

I personally did purchase it from BFC. I want all my money to go to the developers of the game rather than distribution partners. I didn't care what the cost difference was since I am trying to support the people who make the games I like to play rather than middlemen.

I am not even sure what the deal is with the Paradox manual since I have never seen one. I am just trusting that the original poster stated his case correctly and that he never had the opportunity to have a full manual.

I can't see how someone in a retail store would see CMSF on the shelves in a box with a note saying it had a manual and thinking that they should hold off and wait until they get home to order it so that they get the full and complete manual. If that is the case for retail or Paradox then the original poster should have some means to print out the missing parts of the manual.

If the original poster was incorrect and he had the option to buy a fancy full manual then I apologize. I can't imagine anyone trying to save a couple bucks by printing out a couple hundred pages of PDF though -- toner, paper, etc cost money too.

[Lurker765]

From what the thread on the Paradox manual says it appears that it is only 40 pages long.

Perhaps BFC could enable a manual only purchase if they are looking to make a profit on the manual while also letting their customers have a printed copy? I don't know if S&H plus printing costs make this a worthwhile thing, but if the Paradox customers were told they had a manual and it turns out over one hundred pages are missing and unable to be printed it doesn't seem quite right.

[Michael Dorosh]

With all this fuss about the manual, I have to ask - what exactly is in it that you would even want to spend a lot of money printing it out? Aside from the fact it was developed, as noted, for v1.01, it is certainly far from anything like a complete "gamer's guide". I guess it is more satisfying to throw an incomplete manual across the room than it is an incorrect mousepad due to the aerodynamics involved.

What information is it that people think they will find themselves referring to often enough to need it? About the only thing I consistently forgot from my CMX1 manuals over the years was the shortcut to pull the briefings out of the scenario editor. I think for the CM:SF designing, I printed off a page on building construction shortcuts but beyond that, the rulebook wasn't of much use to me.

[Lurker765]

I remember I checked the CMSF manual for things like ATGM ranges, meanings of icons (pre-tooltips), etc since I couldn't find that information in-game. Some of those things are creeping into the game now so it becomes less of a concern.

In any event, I prefer PDFs for searching. I truly prefer not having to access a manual at all and just relying on in-game things to drive learning.

As a counterpoint to MD's point about why get worked up about printing a manual -- why is BFC so dead set against someone being able to print it? At this point I would think the goodwill outweighs the possible piracy concerns. I didn't see the argument where a printed manual prevents piracy enough for other companies otherwise we would still be using those key wheel thingies in every game. I can't imagine BFC makes oodles of money on manuals -- I would think they would prefer everyone to just use a PDF and print it themselves rather than run up their own printing bill and getting stuck with a bunch of outdated manuals in storage.

[CptWasp]

Originally posted by Lurker765:

Since I have no clue what the Paradox version is like -- is it exactly the same as the BFC version?

Did the Paradox customers have a chance to purchase the full manual or choose not to?

I had no choice. I preordered the Paradox version at play.com and the page stated "printed manual", and NOT "some part of the manual".

I'm a Battlefront supporter, read my posts (if you read italian) on the NWI forum! I defended CMSF when a lot of other people were very negative about it.

Discriminating the Paradox version buyers is unfair: I live in Italy and the only hope to get the game in a decent time and at a reasonable cost is to buy it at play.com.

If I must ask a printable version of the manual to Paradox I will do so. But it seems to me really unfair. The manual has been updated, so ALL the players have the right to print a revised copy.

Now I hope to get a response FROM BATTLEFRONT, and not from someone else.

Thank you.

(Oh: I will NOT buy the Acrobat suite, money has a worth here)

[GSX]

Originally posted by CptWasp:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lurker765:

Since I have no clue what the Paradox version is like -- is it exactly the same as the BFC version?

Did the Paradox customers have a chance to purchase the full manual or choose not to?

I had no choice. I preordered the Paradox version at play.com and the page stated "printed manual", and NOT "some part of the manual".

I'm a Battlefront supporter, read my posts (if you read italian) on the NWI forum! I defended CMSF when a lot of other people were very negative about it.

Discriminating the Paradox version buyers is unfair: I live in Italy and the only hope to get the game in a decent time and at a reasonable cost is to buy it at play.com.

If I must ask a printable version of the manual to Paradox I will do so. But it seems to me really unfair. The manual has been updated, so ALL the players have the right to print a revised copy.

Now I hope to get a response FROM BATTLEFRONT, and not from someone else.

Thank you.

(Oh: I will NOT buy the Acrobat suite, money has a worth here) </font>

[GSX]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lurker765:

If BFC did not want the responsibility of picking up the pieces then they should not have partnered with Paradox or whoever. You want the benefits of signing with a distribution partner then you take the risk of being responsible for their actions.

It is BFC's product in the end. They are where the buck stops.

Well if you want the best service, buy the blessed thing from BFC.

That way you’d avoid the patch lags and everything else that seems to happen when a 3rd party is involved. </font>

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Originally posted by GSX:

What I do have an issue with is the proxy servers used by BF to update its own game. Surely they should offer the BF patch on the BF site and not some of sites it is on?

I really don't get this complaint, which I've seen before. Why does it matter, what's so damned awful about going to Gamershell or such?

BFC doesn't have to pay for bandwidth, Gamershell gets you to drop by, you get to download at a good speed from a fairly local server. Why isn't everyone happy? :confused:

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GSX:

What I do have an issue with is the proxy servers used by BF to update its own game. Surely they should offer the BF patch on the BF site and not some of sites it is on?

I really don't get this complaint, which I've seen before. Why does it matter, what's so damned awful about going to Gamershell or such?

BFC doesn't have to pay for bandwidth, Gamershell gets you to drop by, you get to download at a good speed from a fairly local server. Why isn't everyone happy? :confused: </font>

[Letsbe Ave.]

What should be done is that the manual gets updated and then put on the BF website as a free download? Any chance of this?

I'll be very surprised if the manual is ever updated. What's the point? The target audience would be those who paid for the printed copy, and they are not likely to pay for another copy.

Those who haven't paid are unlikely to pay in the future.

BFC have shown that they have no interest in producing a manual that can be printed by their customers, otherwise they would have already taken the small step of releasing a version with black text and no background image. In a patch, if they want to keep the swashbucklers at bay; as a download if they want to improve the lay-knowledge of how to use the non-intuitive interface, and maybe - gasp - spread the game to a wider audience.

I know documentation is very expensive to develop and maintain, quality documentation is even more so - you know, the sort that doesn't simply consist of large paragraphs of descriptions of features presented in a stream of consciousness fashion, with no particular ordering, no index, thus requiring you to read the entire thing each time you'd like to examine one aspect of the game that is not made obvious by the game controls. But, having made the investment to produce a document, and then, having significantly updated the game-play - as planned - wouldn't it make some sense to include in those plans timely updates to the features guide? And to release the updates so they are accessible in-game, or printable, for reference?

User documentation is apparently the bane of most software developers' lives - take a look at the paucity of quality documentation for Open Source software, for instance, and you'll see it either doesn't exist, or it adds no explanation to the description of features, or it's out of date, and therefore, wrong.

If you get it right, though, and/or your software is intuitive to use and single-purposed, the people who would like to use it will be able to do so.

Let the manual languish, and the frustrations with bugs and features are compounded by the lack of guidance on 'how to drive'. It's like the elusive flying car that we've all been waiting for, but it's uncontrollable by most non-professionals, and the many and varied controls are all in a foreign language. Where's the manual, not only on how to operate the thing, but also how to navigate across country/continents?

Disclaimer: I bought the game as a download, since I've not been impressed by the previous games' manuals (see above). I use it mostly using email, and I still enjoy CMBB much more (the camera is much easier to control, I understand the control panels on the screen, the software works as I expect).

Sorry for the soap-box rant, but I'm a repeat customer who is unlikely at this point to pay for any upgrades to this game; some of my reasons are stated above. Please try to convince me otherwise.

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by CptWasp:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lurker765:

Since I have no clue what the Paradox version is like -- is it exactly the same as the BFC version?

Did the Paradox customers have a chance to purchase the full manual or choose not to?

I had no choice. I preordered the Paradox version at play.com and the page stated "printed manual", and NOT "some part of the manual".

I'm a Battlefront supporter, read my posts (if you read italian) on the NWI forum! I defended CMSF when a lot of other people were very negative about it.

Discriminating the Paradox version buyers is unfair: I live in Italy and the only hope to get the game in a decent time and at a reasonable cost is to buy it at play.com.

If I must ask a printable version of the manual to Paradox I will do so. But it seems to me really unfair. The manual has been updated, so ALL the players have the right to print a revised copy.

Now I hope to get a response FROM BATTLEFRONT, and not from someone else.

Thank you.

(Oh: I will NOT buy the Acrobat suite, money has a worth here) </font>

[GSX]

Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GSX:

What I do have an issue with is the proxy servers used by BF to update its own game. Surely they should offer the BF patch on the BF site and not some of sites it is on?

I really don't get this complaint, which I've seen before. Why does it matter, what's so damned awful about going to Gamershell or such?

BFC doesn't have to pay for bandwidth, Gamershell gets you to drop by, you get to download at a good speed from a fairly local server. Why isn't everyone happy? :confused: </font>

[Moon]

BTW, the CMSF manual (and, over time, all of our game manuals) is available online here:

CMSF Online Game Manual Page

The online version will be updated periodically. We already prepared an update which will be released together with the Marines Module, and also put online here.

Martin

[Pandur]

iam fine with the pdf manual and dont want to waste a big amount of paper to to print the manual, but...

The manual may not be copied,

photographed, reproduced, translated, or reduced to any electrical medium or machine-

readable form, in whole or in part

can someone make any clue out of that!? to me this doesnt tell that i wouldnt be able to change it into printer friendly form.

"reproduction" implies to me that you make many copies and give it out free or for a charge. but not changeing your personal copy to have it in printed form. after all if i copy the manual on two or many different places on "my" harddrive, is that alread illegal reproduction("may not be copied")!?

and the last part about "reduceing to" doesnt say that you cannot "extend" the electical medium(the pdf manual!?)into a physical medium-> paper. just you cant do it the other way round.

[Canada Guy]

I like the online manual. It is a good resource.

Is it possible to make it a little larger? The font comes out on my monitor at about 6-8 point which is hard to read.

Also, when we download the Marine module, will it include a manual and if yes, will it be updated to 1.1? Just curious. If that is the case, I will just wait for the Marine module and re-read the manual then.

[Moon]

Canada Guy,

if you want to read, simply click on each page. This opens a larger copy.

Yes, the manual will be updated to 1.1 with the Marines Module, and so will be the online manual.

Martin

[Cpl Steiner]

Version 1.1! What happened to 1.09?

[rich12545]

The lack of a print friendly manual is SOP for BFC. Couple years ago I wanted to print out the manual for CMAK, sometimes I like to sit and read through a game manual - I pick up info every time that I didn't know before. And CMAK is very unprint friendly and a printed manual was not an option. And I didn't want to shell out big bucks for Adobe since I felt this would be the only time I used it. So I posted requesting a change. And waited. Never heard from BFC. So I bumped. Several times. Still never heard. I finally copied/pasted to Word and printed it out. I always thought that was very poor service. Now I'm thinking about buying this CM version. And not looking forward to copying/pasting 196 pages. From what I read here even the printed manual is difficult to read, it would especially be so for my old eyes. It would be EASY for BFC to put out a printer friendly manual. Matrix does it. I can't figure out why BFC is so stubborn.

[rich12545]

I just downloaded the demo to see if I want to buy it. Interesting the demo comes with a pdf file. So the reason BFG doesn't provide a printable manual has nothing to do with pirating. Anyone can get the manual simply by downloading the demo. The other thing I noticed is that with the copy/paste method there will be a lot of pages I don't want plus the font will be much smaller. The font in the manual is very large. I figure 80-90 pages probably. That's not terrible.

I have an athlon 2 gig and the recommended is 2.8 gig so we'll see how it works. But I have a gig of ram and a geforce 7600 superclock 512 meg so that should help. Been looking through the manual a bit and it looks like a nice game. And at 30% off (about $30 US for the dl version) you really can't go wrong.