Small Arms?

[Rick]

Does anyone know of a good source on the kinds of small arms that might be in CMSF? I'm completely clueless what's happened since the M16A2. Like for instance, why have we eliminated the M60 from the squad level and have the SAW now?

[GSX]

Here is a start point for your search.

SAW - by FN.....

http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg17-e.htm

[SgtMuhammed]

SAW is lighter and more mobile. Better suited for the Squad level. The 60 was sent to Weapons squad but has been replaced by 240B. Squad and team leaders are starting to transition to M4, could be done by now actually I've been out for 5 years.

[M1A1TC]

The M4 and M16 are planned to be replaced by the XM8 currently in combat testing in next few years. This modular weapon will also replace M203 and the SAW

The 50Cal M2 MG will be replaced by M312 .50-Caliber (12.7mm) Machine Gun

[ November 08, 2005, 06:56 AM: Message edited by: M1A1TankCommander ]

[MikeyD]

On BFC's 'main UI explained' thread is a graphical representation of weapons in a squad (at least that's what I think it represents. It rather looks like whatever might be available to an Army platoon is going to be available to us.

I've seen more than a couple photos of old Vietnam era M60 mgs in Iraq. Came as a big surprise when I saw them. The Army must've been scraping the bottom of the barrel for weapons to field! I doubt we'll see M60s in the game.

[M1A1TC]

Those must be the new M60E3. They are decent, though I prefer a SAW or M240 B

XM8 used as MG

[ November 08, 2005, 07:04 AM: Message edited by: M1A1TankCommander ]

[hellfish]

M16/M4 Rifles

M240 Medium Machine Gun

M249 Squad Automatic Weapon

M203 40mm Grenade Launcher

M136/AT4 LAW

Anything else listed in bold is likely to be in game as well.

I can probably answer any specific questions you have, or if you've got questions about all the fancy doohickies on the weapons nowadays.

[hellfish]

Oh, BTW - the XM8 was just cancelled. Permanantly, it looks like.

[SgtMuhammed]

I believe the Marines use newer versions of the M60 and some Guard units probably still have some older 60's.

[M1A1TC]

Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

Oh, BTW - the XM8 was just cancelled. Permanantly, it looks like.

Linky?

As far as I know, its just suspended

http://www2.eps.gov/spg/USA/USAMC/DAAE30/W15QKN%2D05%2DX%2D0427/SynopsisR.html

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=636

[ November 08, 2005, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: M1A1TankCommander ]

[SgtMuhammed]

Last I heard they were going to introduce it in pieces as they came available just to get new things into the pipeline. Of course that was a couple years ago.

[hellfish]

This isn't exactly the most definative source, but it's the first one I came up with:

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20051103.aspx

XM8 Put to Sleep

November 3, 2005: The XM8, the U.S. Army’s design for a new assault rifle and light machine-gun, has been cancelled. Actually, the project was put on hold last July. At the time, the reason was believed to be the ongoing debate over whether a new caliber (6.8mm was most often mentioned) should be adopted. While the XM8 used more modern engineering, and was lighter and more reliable, it was basically an improved M-16, just another 5.56mm assault rifle. Meanwhile, SOCOM adopted another new 5.56mm design (SCAR), while the U.S. Marine Corps decided to stay with the M-16 in the future. The XM8 may be revived, in another caliber. But for now, the army does not want to spend several billion bucks on a new assault rifle. Better to wait until the war in Iraq dies down, and radically new weapons, like the 25mm XM-25, hit the field, and pile up some combat experience. Basically, the army believes there are better alternatives than the XM8, but are not sure exactly what these alternatives are.

[SgtMuhammed]

My dad was on the PACAF (Pacific Air Force) shooting team when they introduced the M16. The new weapons were being issued when someone noticed that there were still tons of M1 carbine ammo around. So they decided that they needed to fire it all up. Anyone who wanted could go to the range, check out a weapon, and recieve several thousand rounds to expend. Needless to say, my dad did his share.

Not relavant but if they do switch to a new caliber it could be a lot of fun for a while.

[Rick]

Wow, thanks guys. I can keep myself entertained for awhile with this info and know what I'm looking at when CMSF comes along.

[Rick]

For those of you who really like the M249 SAW, what do you think of the smaller caliber than the 60? That was the first thing that caught my attention with the new weapon; the weapon being used in that role having the same caliber as the rifles.

[ng cavscout]

The m-4 can be modified with several attachments.

the m-68 CCO is the close combat optic, basically a red dot sight. when mounting the CCO, a back up iron sight is also installed in case of CCO failure/damage.

the Sure Fire tactical light, a powerful white light, operated by a pressure switch mounted on the rifle

the PAC 4, an infrared laser dot sight, also operated by a pressure switch, visible only with NVG's

the ACOG, a telescopic sight, I think it is 4x, used by the designated marksman of the squad (at least in my battalion). A collapsible bipod is also attached in this configuration, it functions as an assault grip or a bipod.

the assault grip, a removable pistol grip mounted under the barrel (not usable with m203 GL)

The M-249 SAW can also be accesorized with the following attachments.

Short barrel, lowers the overall length for close combat applications, also makes it easier to deploy from inside a vehicle

ACOG, different than the ACOG for the M4, also a telescopic sight, not sure of magnification

Collapsible butt stock, see shortened barrel for applications

Those are all that come to mind without further research.

Both weapon systems have rail systems which allow for quick attachment and detachment of accesories.

[hellfish]

I like the SAW because, with 200 rounds of ammo, it weighs the same as an unloaded M60. It's more reliable than the M60. You can carry more ammo (IIRC you usually carry four boxes of 200 rounds each, though they're starting to use pouches of 100 instead). An M60 with 800 rounds could easily surpass 70 or 80lbs I think.

Logistics is simplified too - you can use the exact same ammo as the guys with the M16s - so you can break up your links to hook them up or, in a pinch, you can use their magazines (though this isn't good for the health of the SAW).

It also has a higher rate of fire (approx. 200 rounds per minute more than the M60), which is better for its intended role as a suppressive fire weapon.

As for it being a smaller caliber, it's not really an issue at the squad level. Each platoon still has two M60/M240 guns in the weapon squad so they're available for use. In most firefights, it's how much lead you get in the target area as opposed to how big those rounds are - at least on the platoon level.

[hellfish]

The M16s (at least the M16A4s) also have the Pitcatinny Rail system that allows for attachments. M240s can usually be equipped with optics and accessories too. The normal magification scope for an M249 or M240B is the M145, I think, which has something like 4.5x magnification.

Hey Cavscout - when you qualify with your weapons, are you allowed to have the optics or are you stuck with ironsights?

[ng cavscout]

Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

The M16s (at least the M16A4s) also have the Pitcatinny Rail system that allows for attachments. M240s can usually be equipped with optics and accessories too. The normal magification scope for an M249 or M240B is the M145, I think, which has something like 4.5x magnification.

Hey Cavscout - when you qualify with your weapons, are you allowed to have the optics or are you stuck with ironsights?

We qualified with the standard sights, and then we had to qualify again with CCO's and zero the back up iron sights.

[Battlefront.com]

Just checked with an inside source and he said that the XM-8 is indeed dead. Whether it is officially dead or soon will be is not relevant. The funding is gone and it isn't coming back. XM-29 is in a similar boat, at least as long as the conflict in Iraq continues. We're still following the XM-26 LSS (shotgun), which apparently will be fielded sometime soon now that they have teething problems fixed.

The Mech/Stryker guys are still using the M16/203 combo, but perhaps by the time 2007 comes around they will have swapped out for M4/203.

However, new information shows that the current M203's days are limited. HK's A36 40mm grenade launcher has been greenlighted to replace the M203. The US version is called EGLM (Enhanced Grenade Launcher Module) or its protype number XM320. Not sure what the final designation will be. Big change is that it is side loaded which allows for a longer round to be used. The round has more propellant and better frag warhead.

Steve

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

This isn't exactly the most definative source, but it's the first one I came up with:

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20051103.aspx

Another source on the XM-8:

OICW-1 Canceled, Door Closes on XM-8 For Now

On July 22, 2005, DID reported that the U.S. Army had temporarily suspended the Request for Proposal (RFP) for the acquisition of a new family of small weapons - Objective Individual Combat Weapon Increment 1 (OICW-1). Increment 1 would have opened the door for the new H&K XM-8 weapon family, which was touted as the successor to the M16A4 assault rifle, M249 SAW light machine gun, and even the M9 pistol via a cut-down version. See DID's full coverage and links.

Now Murdoc Online reports that OICW increment 1 has been formally canceled while the Pentagon reconsiders its plans in light of lessons from Iraq and Afghanistan. The USA may also wish to take into account Israeli lessons learned under related conditions during military operations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, which resulted in the new TAR-21 Tavor assault weapon family.

[flamingknives]

From defense-aerospace.com:

GRAFENWÖHR, Germany --- Soldiers with the 1st Infantry Division got a sneak peek at the Army’s future when they fired three experimental weapons at Grafenwöhr Training Area here.

The new weapons are upgraded versions of a grenade launcher, a machine gun and a semi-automatic rifle. The systems are produced at Picatinny Arsenal, an Army installation in New Jersey.

Army Lt. Col. Kevin Stoddard, project manager for crew-served weapons at Picatinny, said soldiers were getting a chance to fire “the next generation of soldier weapons.” He said the weapons were built from the ground up with feedback from soldiers after each step. The final result was the weapons that were fired Sept. 24.

With optical and thermal sights and little kickback, the weapons proved easy to fire, and most soldiers hit the targets on their first attempts.

“These weapons allow soldiers to get their first round on target, quickly engage the enemy and move to the next target,” Stoddard said.

Army Spec. Jason Enriquez, an infantryman with B Company, 2nd Battalion, 2nd Infantry Regiment, was the first Soldier in the area to fire the XM25, a semiautomatic weapon. He had glowing reports on its capabilities.

“It was totally smooth and light. It shot fantastic,” he said. “It moves your head and snaps you back. I never felt a kick like that before, but it was smooth. It wasn’t rough.”

The XM25 is equipped with a ballistic computer, thermal sights and zoom capabilities.

Like Enriquez, Army Spec. Matthew Krupa also found the weapon easy to use.

“The accuracy was amazing,” Krupa said, a tanker with Headquarters and Headquarters Troop, 1st Battalion, 4th U.S. Cavalry Regiment. “The site was perfect, very advanced.” Having the XM25 in Iraq would have proven beneficial, Krupa added. “It would be good for getting people behind walls or ducking behind cars. It would have helped a lot,” he said.

Also tested was the XM312 machine gun, which shoots, handles and maintains like a light machine gun. Army Spec. Jay Teller and others were amazed at both the accuracy and steadiness of the XM312. “It has a sight, and it doesn’t move much because there isn’t much kick, so you can keep your eye right on the crosshairs,” said Teller, who serves as a scout with C Troop, 1st Bn., 4th U.S. Cav. Rgt. “It’s a very easy weapon to shoot.”

The ability to lay the first round on target is what impressed Teller the most. “It would have been very beneficial downrange. There’s zero time for the bad guy to see what’s going on,” he said.

That also means a more optimal use of ammunition, noted Army Spec. Jonathan Calvin, a fueler with Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 121st Signal Battalion. “It conserves a lot of rounds because of the accuracy. You would be able to hit your target every time,” Calvin said.

Also tested was the SM320, a low-velocity grenade launcher that either attaches to a host rifle or is fired as a stand-alone weapon. Although none of the Soldiers had used it before, most scored hits on their first try.

Stoddard said he expects the fielding of these advanced weapons to begin in 2008

A bit late for CMSF, but never mind. The XM312 is apparently available in two flavours: .50 cal and 25mm airbursting rounds

The XM25 is a semi-automatic individual weapon firing the same 25mm smart rounds as the XM312, AFAICT.

You also have:

M24 - 7.62mm sniper rifle

M107 - .50 cal sniper/anti-materiel rifle

M2 - I think we ought to know what this is

Various shotguns and pistols.

[Battlefront.com]

Meant to say the XM-29 amd XM-25 (related, though not the same) are on hold. I haven't done a lot of research on these weapons, but it appears the XM-25 is an offshoot of the XM-29 program. Both are made by ATK.

Steve

[flamingknives]

Indeed, the XM25 is the XM29 minus such inconveniences as an assault rifle.

I hadn't spotted the hold on the XM25. I'd assumed that it had slipped through due to not being small calibre.

The XM29 (the combined assault rifle/smart grenade launcher) had been put back to a later increment anyway and would have succeeded the operational use of the XM25, if at all.

[Peter Cairns]

Steve,

Any update of what of the current Russian and Chinese stuff has been turning up in Syria.

I don't expect the likes of SU-27's, but given what we are seeing in Iraq and the question of infiltration, I would have thought anyone wanting to sell some of the nastier anti-personnel stuff and small arms would be in there hopeful of finding eager buyers.

Peter.