Michael Dorosh Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: Plus, what should the customer care about the military's interest, or lack there of, in our products? If the game is good then what difference does it make? Fear that coding time for private sales to the military will take priority over catering to the existing civilian fan base. Real or imagined fear, I mean. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbott Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: (snip) Plus, what should the customer care about the military's interest, or lack there of, in our products? If the game is good then what difference does it make? Steve I hope the military or militaries buy the hell out of CMSF. Battlefront gets more income, which gives us more excellent games. You know your forcing me to read Generation Kill and Thunder Run. Both titles have been sitting on my desk for a month now un-opened. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 The CMx2 engine is set up to be easily modifiable. Since most of the work in supporting extra stuff, like vehicles and weapons, is art time, we can manage to do a special version for a particular military without screwing up our commercial work. In fact, that is a requirement we have going forward. If some military wants to derail our commercial work for any significant time even THEY will gag when they see how much it will cost them And yeah, military revenue would be an indirect benefit to you guys. We have this dumb philosophy of plowing our profits back into our products instead of taking the money and running. We flunked a few tests when we took our Greedy Capitalism 101 courses back in college Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FFE Posted October 9, 2005 Author Share Posted October 9, 2005 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: In response to the original start to this thread... oh boy. If we said this was going to be WWII ETO I am sure FFE would have said "what a corporate sell out. Everybody else is doing WWII ETO so what does Battlefront go and do? A money grab! Phooey! They should do something that nobody will be interested in, like the Boxer Revolution".FFE = CM Alpha tester and co-creator of Combat Mission HQ (until David H screwed thing). I sure as heck wasn't asking Big Time Software then or now, oh I mean, Battlefront.com to waste time or ask for hand outs at the local soup kitchen. The company's manifesto meant a lot to me, and I continue to desire this company's success. But, it appears the focus was lost. This "new" version of CM is 1) fictional and 2) a political firestorm. -Fire For Effect 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Originally posted by FFE: This "new" version of CM is ...2) a political firestorm. huh? :confused: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FFE Posted October 9, 2005 Author Share Posted October 9, 2005 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by FFE: This "new" version of CM is ...2) a political firestorm. huh? :confused: </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbott Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Originally posted by FFE: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by FFE: This "new" version of CM is ...2) a political firestorm. huh? :confused: </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FFE Posted October 9, 2005 Author Share Posted October 9, 2005 Originally posted by Abbott: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by FFE: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by FFE: This "new" version of CM is ...2) a political firestorm. huh? :confused: </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbott Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Originally posted by FFE: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Abbott: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by FFE: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by FFE: This "new" version of CM is ...2) a political firestorm. huh? :confused: </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrcar Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Originally posted by Mace: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jrcar: Recently I ran an exercise using Decisive Action at our Command and Staff Course.How'd that go, Rob? </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overman_XXX Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Suicide bombers? Cool! Will there also be civilians and non-combatants available for slaughter, beheading, and torture? er...Syrian Army; will it put up a good fight? Sigh...did someone say 'turkey shoot'? @ FFE I agree. Too political for me as well. Modern warfare sims border on propoganda and patriotic backslapping. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwazydog Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Originally posted by Overman_XXX: Sigh...did someone say 'turkey shoot'? Only if they havnt been following any of the threads Steve has been posting in on the matter. As he has mentioned, if we didnt think we couldnt have made a challanging and interesting game out of this scenario, we wouldnt have. Dan 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoolaman Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Originally posted by FFE: Capitalizing off of worldly events... Theatre and subject matter. IED and suicide bombers? Yeah I agree especially on the suicide bombers thing. As I posted elsewhere, it will be extremely distasteful to be playing the Arabs and have to hit DETONATE on my suicide bomber unit. Also how do you have legitimate suicide civilians without normal civilians. A big part of their effectiveness is that they could be any dude driving down the road. I doubt regular army soldiers will line up to blow themselves up on purpose. Please make the Arabs mostly conventional forces. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillweed Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: If some military wants to derail our commercial work for any significant time even THEY will gag when they see how much it will cost them Steve Comrade Steve, Hopfully you overcharge the impirialist pigs for their tools to opress the prolatariat. $10k per copy seems adaquate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mord Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Originally posted by Overman_XXX: Suicide bombers? Cool! Will there also be civilians and non-combatants available for slaughter, beheading, and torture? er...Syrian Army; will it put up a good fight? Sigh...did someone say 'turkey shoot'? @ FFE I agree. Too political for me as well. Modern warfare sims border on propoganda and patriotic backslapping. When CM was announced did you say "Ohh cool Death Camps! Racial Genocide! Gestapo Interrogations!" You are both being hypocritical...it's okay to play wargames where people were killed and maimed and blown to crap just as long as it was set twenty or thirty or sixty years ago? DEATH IS DEATH. KILLING IS KILLING. And as much as the High Brows on this site like to make it sound otherwise what with the strategy aspects and blah blah blah we are all participating in playing out events where human beings are killing other human beings...That is war...Our hobby is kinda sick when you stop and think about the fact that we are all participating in what other people actually suffered through and died over...but don't denounce one period of war because someone you know was killed (though I understand where you are coming from) and act like the rest is ok....it's all about death... Mord. [ October 08, 2005, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: Mord ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 FFE, But, it appears the focus was lost. Not lost, not even changed. Unless you found some other version of the manifesto that said we would only make games that didn't offend you or that were artifically limited to what you decided is good or not good. You might have been around for a while, but I wrote the manifesto and started up Battlefront. I'd wager I know a bit more about what we're doing and why we're doing it than you. And I see nothing inconsistent with CM:SF than before, other than you like one setting and not the other. I also don't agree with your logic about the association with loss. Many CMx1 gamers lost relatives in WWII. Many live in countries that were severly affected by the war or the Nazi death machine that was at the center of it. By your logic every wargaming Jew, homosexual, offspring of a dead WWII vet, or any other person somehow negatively affected by WWII (directly or indirectly) should have been up and arms about our horrendous choice for CMx1 games and the CMx2 games that follow CM:SF. It's like the whole downside of political correctness... if you aren't offending someone you are obviously not saying or doing anything at all. Obviously if a near loss makes CM:SF too painful for you, then skip it. I expect more than a few will feel that way. It's perfectly undertandble and we won't hold it against you. However, you should avoid throwing stones when you live in a glass house. It is unnecessary and messy all at the same time. But seeing as you missed the sarcastic irony in the quote you replied to, I'm sure you'll try chucking a boulder or two more before you go away (mad, most likely). Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securityguard Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 wah wah wah you get to play as SS fascists wah wah wah i'm crying because in vietnam VC sappers blew themselves up on our marines wah wah wah this wargame is too recent thus should not be simulated to the extent that makes it realistic, and if it does it's simply cashing in on the controversial aspects and not the simulation itself. War is violent and political no matter what. It's understandable that the subject matter will offend but some reasons on here seem to be pouty or nearsighted. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Ah, didn't see Mord's post before posting. Strangely enough, we both picked up on the mile wide streak of double standards. And it is a bit twisted that we wargamers discuss death and the act of killing as easily as we talk about what grass mod people are using, as if they are on the same emotional and ethical level. If it were just limited to us I'd say we were abnormal nuts, but for every one CMer out there about a million are plugging away in FPS games singling out and killing virtual individuals with glee. Obviously our entire species has a few defective (or effective, depending on how you look at it) genes swirling around in our DNA makeup. Bottom line, if you don't like the topic then switch game genres. There are plenty of Poker and kids games out there to play that don't involve killing. You might not be as interesting to play games with, but at least you wouldn't be bothered by your own hypocrisy. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrold Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 The proximity to current combat deaths brings an emotional reaction that the buffering distance of history tends to mute. On a philosophical level, death is death. Seeing the wounded guys at Walter Reed and reading about the atrocities almost everyday being perpetrated on the Iraqi people and our soldiers simply makes this setting feel different to me. I can see lots of people being very uncomfortable, but then again the America's Army game, which I haven't played, must certainly have U.S. casualties involved. I don't think I could ever play as a suicide bomber even as an intellectual exercise. It's not rational, it's emotional but it feels oogy when our guys our out there facing this in reality. Of course I am loaded so tomorrow I may feel differently. BDH 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: Ah, didn't see Mord's post before posting. Strangely enough, we both picked up on the mile wide streak of double standards. And it is a bit twisted that we wargamers discuss death and the act of killing as easily as we talk about what grass mod people are using, as if they are on the same emotional and ethical level. If it were just limited to us I'd say we were abnormal nuts, but for every one CMer out there about a million are plugging away in FPS games singling out and killing virtual individuals with glee. Obviously our entire species has a few defective (or effective, depending on how you look at it) genes swirling around in our DNA makeup. Bottom line, if you don't like the topic then switch game genres. There are plenty of Poker and kids games out there to play that don't involve killing. You might not be as interesting to play games with, but at least you wouldn't be bothered by your own hypocrisy. Steve How many people have seen Shakespeare on the stage - tell me there's no death or violence in any of his plays. Then go and see the Polanski version of MacBeth... DEATH. Entertaining sick people for... well, forever, really. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 well, forever, really.What? Are you saying that the Christians were really put in the Arena against their will and those lions weren't a couple of jokers in some costume? I don't believe it! Violence in entertainment started in Hollywood and then moved to Silicon Valley all in the 1980s and nobody else in the world enjoys one bit of it. Any dolt knows that! Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Barrold, certainly grasp what you're saying. It is one reason we rulled out OEF and OIF without any hesitation. The other reason is that the conflicts are not over. Another reason is that it is harder to accurately simulate something that just happened than it is to simulate something that happened a long time ago or has yet to happen. All I can say is that we are approaching this subject matter with the sort of tact we did for CMx1 games. We never glorified the German point of view or the philosophy that lead to the conflict existing in the first place. Nor did we support the "ra-ra-ra-crush the evil Nazis" concept that most wargames push (especially now a days). We will also not feature the sort of racist, demeaning crap that some games actually built into their games to support a specific politicial/national point of view. Yes, all of this stuff might be true and relevant to some extent, but we feel actively pushing it cheapens the simulation and reduces us to the developer equivalent of a tabloid journalist. As an aside, personally I have nothing against Syria or the Syrian people. I also don't have anything against the Germans or Americans or Finns for that matter. I am sure the same is 100% true for the rest of the Battlefront team. But without military forces to battle against each other we're out of business. So we must accept certain levels of depersonalization of the subject matter or we're off to get new jobs. And same true for wargamers since to have a problem with this basic necessary element of wargames means needing to find a new hobby to enjoy. It's a little tougher to do things sensitively for stuff that is so current, but it really isn't that much different than stuff that is more distant. Treat the subject matter and forces with respect and don't cheapen the sacrifices made, whether you agree with the idology that drives them or not. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrold Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 It's not a well known fact, but many of those put into the arena were promised a coupon to a full buffet and salad bar after their appearance. The inside joke of course was that it was not really a full buffet as it leaned heavily towards solely Mediterranean dishes, but it's an esoteric difference. BFS5 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrold Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Steve I don't doubt for a moment your sincerity in the viewpoints expressed. In all seriousness, much is going to depend on the execution of the game. BTW, feel free to call me Barry, all my fiends call me Barry. Rational or not the sight of a U.S. squad in the exact same uniforms we see on the news being wiped out by an IED is unsettling in a way that the first game could never be. This is also a function of the improved graphics as those guys look quite realistic. It's a visceral reaction and perhaps it will enhance the appreciation of playing the U.S. side with the goal of limiting casualties. BDH 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Originally posted by FFE: Capitalizing off of worldly events... Theatre and subject matter. IED and suicide bombers? That's not capitilisation at all. That is the shape of the modern battlefield even as far back as, yes, Vietnam and probably further. If one's going to 'model' the modern battlefield at the tactical level, than maybe you just have to include those elements in. btw IIRC, HPS Sim's Point of Attack 2 already includes IED and suicide bombers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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