Women?

[MikeyD]

Link to LARGE image of female tanker(?):

Big image off Army website

Either that or I'm accidentally insulting some 'small-boned' tanker guy

[Andreas]

Wymen, shmymen. Does it have sharks with friggin' laserbeams on their heads?

All the best

Andreas

[akd]

At a minimum, there should be female helicopter pilots right up front with the Stryker unit. This also means that at a minimum, helicopters should be actual assets on the battlefield that can be shot down with crew injured, captured, rescued, and not abstracted avenging angels swooping in from off the map.

In a broader sense, if the current Stryker Brigades have females in their ranks, their exclusion would not make sense.

One of the caveats of the chosen scenario is you are going to have to depict rear-echolon engagements with irregular forces to maintain a degree of plausibility.

[zmoney]

MikeyD said:

Either that or I'm accidentally insulting some 'small-boned' tanker guy

That picture is clearly of a woman. But if you look on her right shoulder the patch she has on there is a medical unit I believe. At least thats what they are here in fort lewis. I didn't see a patch on her left shoulder showing what unit shes with currently. But if I had to make a guess she was just joy riding.

There are NO women in tank crews. I'm not saying they couldn't hack it or anything.

I think the problem with threads like this is that people who post in them tend to watch to many movies or TV shows that depict women in a more male role and males in a more weaker feminine role. Like that hidious show "over there". Man what a crock. Women do not actively take part in combat operations purposely. Thats why the news makes any chick that fires or attempts to fire her gun in the general direction of the enemy a medal of honor recipient. Because its so rare.

Lets take a look at the Jesica Lynch deal. I believe it was reported only one of the chicks fired her weapon and she only fired twice before her gun malfunctioned. Jessica never fired a shot. In fact I think only two or three of the guys actually engaged the enemy.

So I'm not saying gals can't fight, just that they don't. And lastly if gals had so much more mental toughness and physical stamina on average then why haven't they been the ones who have filled the ranks of infantry through out the ages?

[akd]

Originally posted by zmoney:

MikeyD said:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Either that or I'm accidentally insulting some 'small-boned' tanker guy

Women do not actively take part in combat operations purposely. </font>

[zmoney]

Other than chopper pilots. I'm talking about infantry or other combat arms ground units.

[ November 02, 2005, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: zmoney ]

[zmoney]

The dreaded double post.

[akd]

They may not be in the line units, but they can be attached, e.g. women attached to combat units on ops in Iraq to deal with searching arab women.

not necessarily an illustration of such, but if I recall, this is from the Stryker unit in Mosul:

[MikeyD]

I thought the last gasp of 'women not in combat' doctrine came back around the Panama invasion. You've got to define combat VERY narrowly to say they're not participating. If a 35 year old female National Guard soldier is shouldering a SAW in the back of an armored hummer 5 days a week and her unit is taking casualties it becomes increasing difficult to keep up the 'women not in combat' fiction.

As for mental stamna, read "Achilles in Vietnam". Nobody's been given a guarantee, male or female, that combat's not going the break them.

[zmoney]

Those aren't really combat missions. In Faludga I dont believe the Marines took women along to search other women. Units sometimes take females along when they set up road blocks or other noncombat operations.

I repeat, when combat is expected women are not brought along.

Personally I think the Army should set up an experiment battalion consisting of women only. And let them see some combat to see how they do. I'm sure they would do fine.

But my main point is, its silly to waste time on all the defferent graphics of people. Would it really make a defference to you if they didn't have a woman modeled in? I just dont see how that would effect game play. Pretty soon BFC is going to have uniforms with no soldier in them running around, so as to not offend anyone.

[Dr.Love]

Ok, so where the women at? All I see is a bunch of Greg Brady lookin fools dancin all stiff like 'round a boring subject baby.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Link to LARGE image of female tanker(?):

Big image off Army website

Either that or I'm accidentally insulting some 'small-boned' tanker guy

I would go with it being a woman, but it's a very narrow call. I can also imagine a man looking like that (though not commonly).

Interesting weathering on the Abrams, which I note is still carrying European camo.

Added: Also, does it seem like she(?) is wearing a plain khaki shirt rather than Desert Camo?

Michael

[imported_Captain_Wacky]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

I thought the last gasp of 'women not in combat' doctrine came back around the Panama invasion. You've got to define combat VERY narrowly to say they're not participating.

The doctrine was never really "no women in combat", but no women in infantry/tanks/artillery or units whose principle mission involves combat. But a woman 7 ton driver can find herself in combat just as often as her male counterparts. There are plenty of women who've ruined insurgents days in Iraq leading convoys.

You are indeed opening a whole can of worms.

While it is certainly true that men are, on average, stronger in terms of brute strenth, There's considerable evidence that women have the physiological edge when it comes endurance, and that their bodies also deal much better with prolonged physical extertion under difficult conditions (such as extreme heat, etc.)

So you could argue that female soldiers should fatigue *less* easily than men in many combat situations. . .

The +100lbs of gear that an infantryman wears into combat throws these arguments out the window. Most women just can't handle that and perform at the same level. And brute strength isn't just a nice thing to have, its a necessity when you've got to carry your 175lbs buddy out of harms way, plus his +100lbs of gear, as well as everything you're carrying.

[Nidan1]

Let's quit beating around the bush (no pun intended). A women can fill a body bag just as ably as a man. The debate is whether or not they should be included in a game that represents modern combat.

If America feels that it must send not only its young men, but young women as well off to war,just to satisfy some ridiculius notion of equality and political correctness. Then, by all means women should be represented in the new game.

[MikeyD]

Nobody's suggesting gender mixed infantry platoons like in "Starship Troopers". Just that a nod in the direction of mixed gender in the theater of operation wouldn't be out of the question.

This debate reminds me of those old 1960s WWII moves, where a combat platoon ALWAYS contained the mandatory one jew, one hispanic, one southern farmboy, one eastern academic, one Brookynite wiseguy for comic relief, and a black ex-NFL linebacker with limited acting skills. Their heart was in the right place depicting the 'melting pot' that was a draft army, the problem was the formula got really old really fast. A nominally mixed gender U.S. army sounds appropriate for this game, but like everything else excess in anything is often a bad thing.

[pad152]

Those aren't really combat missions

Oh, tell that to the truck drivers who come under constant attack. or the female army Capt. who’s' A10 was hit in the battle for Baghdad.

CM SF mission a Stryker group coming to aid of a convoy, coming under attack.

Female troops, I'm still waiting for my female snipers in CM: Barbarossa to Berlin

[zmoney]

Pad and everyone else, your not getting the point. The point is, women are not part of major ground combat operations. I'm not saying women don't get shot at or women dont get blown up by IED's. All I'm saying is that they are not in any ground combat arms unit. They are not purposely put on the front line.

[SgtMuhammed]

The entire army is designed to go into harm's way so you can say that anyone can expect to go into combat.

Women can fight and die just like men but there is a lot more than that to being an infantryman or a tanker. Women are allowed in some ADA units and Engineer units other than Combat Engineers.

If CMSF is going to show a lot of combat support troops, which include MPs and some supply, then there have to be women. If BFC decides to stay below battalion level with all possible forces then there probably won't be any women unless they start letting them be cooks. Even female medics in a line unit would be very unlikely. Medics are expected to be able to move a casualty and your average infantryman weighs nearly 200 lbs buck naked.

By the way, I knew the first female to be assigned to a "line" infantry unit. She was a cook in 1/4 Inf in Hohenfels, Germany. We were OPFOR, however, and were non-deployable so she wasn't in a real infantry battalion. Likewise I knew the first woman to command a combat engineer platoon (she was one of the most beautiful women I ever saw, by the way) but again that was in a special situation. The unit in question was doing a rotation on guard duty with us in Cuba and when they left she was reassigned to civil engineers.

Things may change a little in the next few years but I still wouldn't expect to see many female trigger pullers.

[M1A1TC]

That female soldier is definatly just hitching a ride, which happens all the time (loaders hatch is pretty much the only spot to put a passenger in. I had to give rides to people before (non-tankers)

It is ILLIGAL to have females in Armor branch, or infantry. I am currenty ADA, and we just got some females in my unit a few months ago after a law/doctrine change. The Army is experiencing a shortage, and they are starting to put females in more and more roles previosly filled only by guys.

I think we have a long way to go still. Over 10% of females in the Army are raped or sexually assaulted (reported)

I think some women in uniform are very sexy, but I would never rape one (consensual only)

[Thermopylae]

I realize I've only been in training, but personally, I find that the females I've worked with are on something of an S curve. They tend to be the top 30% or the bototm 30% so to speak.

Take the example of 2 female SAW gunners during an FTX. One of them was quite good, managed to single handedly hold a position long enough for us to counterattack (and inflict 65% casualties on the OPFOR company with just our platoon), could be relied upon to act as a team leader, and actually helped haul one fat POS's gear. The other one surrendered her spare barrel, spare ammo, and eventually weapon to male squad members within a day, was prone to flights of hysteria, lacked tactical discipline, and required constant supervision to make sure she was eating so that she didn't pass out in the field. The few other females in the platoon pretty much gravitated towards one of these spectrums or the other, with very few center of mass.

Just my experiences, as incredibly limited as they may be.

[pad152]

The point is, women are not part of major ground combat operations. I'm not saying women don't get shot at or women dont get blown up by IED's. All I'm saying is that they are not in any ground combat arms unit. They are not purposely put on the front line.

Where is the front line in Iraq?

The problem with the war in Iraq and the next Middle East war, there may not be a front line. The Chinese saying of "How do you attack a dragon, you attack the tail". This is the problem with a large modern army, it has sharp teeth, but also a very long tail.

The biggest problem the army is it's focus on taking objectives and no plan for keeping them. Ok, we have taken the objective, now what do we do!

[Dillweed]

Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:

I think we have a long way to go still. Over 10% of females in the Army are raped or sexually assaulted (reported)

If that were the case I think the Army would have a major sh*tstorm on its hands. While it is a big problem, the numbers are nowhere near 10%.

From a Washington Post article

According to the data, the total number of reported cases of sexual assault involving Army personnel increased by 19 percent from 1999 to 2002 -- from 658 to 783, with annual increases ranging from 2 percent to 13 percent. During the same period, the number of reported rapes increased by 25 percent -- from 356 to 445, according to the data. The number of Army personnel on active duty, including reservists, rose during this period by less than 6 percent.

Last I checked there were 1,000,000 soldiers in the US Army about 10% of which were female. That would make the rate 0.7%. Which isn't great, but it is comprable to the civillian rate.

Coincidentally, this was the very reason my recruiter said he was against women in combat arms. Not to badmouth anyone currently in CA, but he said that in his expirence they were not the sharpest, most pressive tools in the shed. If women were secluded with some on long deployments well...

[Sixxkiller]

Women are part of combat units now. They cannot be assigned natively to a combat unit but incase you guys havent been in the Mid East all non medical personel are REQUIRED to be in full combat readiness when either being out of camp or to security perimeter duty. Youre even supposed to take your M-16/M4, helmet, and boots when you use the latrine. Do you think they issue the gear cause women like accessories?

And women do go on operations where that are considered "hot". Have to take them to search so we dont "offend" the religious and moral customs of the occupied countries.

And if there were opportunities for women in combat roles that would be fine by me. I dont give a **** if you piss standing up or sitting down, if you wanna be there, gender shouldnt be a DQ.

Another note: Women police officers actually have a higher hit percentage in armed conflict with suspects than men do. Saw a study a few years back of expended rounds/confirmed hits. Was like 22% for women and 19% for men. Sad they have to fire 5 times to hit something at close range, especially with all the training they are supposed to be getting. Women are also on Swat teams. Had a team come to train with us at Benning one year that was lead by a woman.

-Ray

[Colin]

What happen's when a mixed gender squad gets into trouble?

I imagine being cut off, out of command and control could get pretty racy.

The hot chick in squad morale bonus comes with an overall stamina reduction.

Sorry, I hadn't even thought about it. I really don't think it matters how women perform in combat or the police/SWAT team etc. I am unsure if it's worth modeling women at CM's level. If anything call the troops things that are not gender specific and have a 1 in 50? 1 in 100? chance of having a soldier with less stamina and more morale? I don't know if I need to see a female character (in CM!).

[ November 03, 2005, 06:38 AM: Message edited by: Colin ]

[mazex]

Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:

That female soldier is definatly just hitching a ride, which happens all the time (loaders hatch is pretty much the only spot to put a passenger in. I had to give rides to people before (non-tankers)

Damn it, my grandmother has a picture of herself with a pair of binoculars on the bridge of a German class VII sub at sea somewhere... It would be nice to add here. She knew the captain and got a short joy ride on a training mission so they where doing it in 1943 too

/Mazex