Women?

[Peter Cairns]

I know there was a discussion at some point about other than white faces for US troops, although I think it was before CM:SF was announced, but what about women.

Given that they are now more or less routinely to be found in or near the front line, they should be in.

The controvercial bit is whether it should be anything other than done graphically, for example if part of a team haulling a 120mm mortar over rough group should they fatigue more easily.

personnel I'd say no as it is either unrealistic or the difference in real life isn't worth the effort, or that other than the modelling aspect it isn't worth the coding time to model such a small and limited difference.

But I can see this one opening a whole can of worms...

Peter.

[YankeeDog]

You are indeed opening a whole can of worms.

While it is certainly true that men are, on average, stronger in terms of brute strenth, There's considerable evidence that women have the physiological edge when it comes endurance, and that their bodies also deal much better with prolonged physical extertion under difficult conditions (such as extreme heat, etc.)

So you could argue that female soldiers should fatigue *less* easily than men in many combat situations. . .

[Dillweed]

But would women be with a very tip of the spear combat arms unit in the period immediatly when they are going on the attack. I kinda think not, but perhaps.

IIRC most of the unit modling is still done at the squad (or probably fire team in this case) level so the sex of a soldier would really not matter as the only things for individual soldiers would be very basic (name, specialy, wound state, and I think ammo)

[Peter Cairns]

Overall what I have read suggests less overall stamina but better concentration under stress than men.

I remeber comming across research from the states that said that they had fewer accidents in police persuits as drivers than men particularly if it was a long chase.

better concentration under pressure, and better overall attention span.

Stands to reason really, they can spend three hours in the same shoe shop.

Now thats attention span.

Peter.

[Terence]

Are women less likely to shoot to kill? Less likely to shoot at all?

[MikeyD]

Woman aren't 'supposed' to be in combat (cough cough), but a 'feminized' hummer or truck driver definitely wouldn't be out of the question. And we wouldn't need Laura Croft body proportions to get the idea across. Slight difference in build under the flack vest, and a smaller head. Textures would do the rest. Something respectful. As for stamina, I've got female coworkers who routinely run 3 miles for lunch. If I tried running 3 miles it'd kill me!

BFC's got a fine line to walk with the new game. How far to go with ethnic features, racial and gender mix. No matter what they come up with, someone's going to take the resulting game the wrong way.

[Sergei]

Come on guys, this ain't an Abu Ghraib simulator.

[Dillweed]

Now that's a game, I'd buy

Combat Mission: Light Stick Sodomy

[Abbott]

Yeah before the US took over Abu Ghraib the Iraqi's were ripping out men’s rectums with sticks and cutting off body parts, watch where you step, there’s a thumb! Beating prisoners until their bones broke and applying electricity to their testicles was also common. Sergei Middle Eastern jails smell of blood, piss, vomit and ****. But all that seems perfectly acceptable to you. Your troubles (or joys) seem to begin when an American makes a mistake.

Speaking of women and terrorists, it is not unusual to find that females are much more cruel then men. Almost like they think they have something to prove. Sergei is there a chance one might get a hold of you for some up close and personal instruction? I would try not to laugh if you told me about it.

I have not experienced how the current US military situation is working out with the many female soldiers. However I would hope to see ethnic soldiers in CM:SF. In my experience Black soldiers were some of the best NCOs in the armed forces.

[Cpl Steiner]

I remember reading once that one of the (British) Army's reasons for not putting a woman in front line duties was that if she was wounded it was assumed that her male colleagues would be more likely to run to her aid and thereby put the wider mission objectives in jeopardy.

This would indeed open up a whole new can of worms if simulated! Imagine: bloke gets hit, everyone just steps over his bleeding body and continues the mission; girl breaks a fingernail, the unit becomes combat ineffective whilst everyone rallies round to comfort the poor lass.

[Dillweed]

Originally posted by Abbott:

Yeah before the US took over Abu Ghraib the Iraqi's were ripping out men’s rectums with sticks and cutting off body parts, watch where you step, there’s a thumb! Beating prisoners until their bones broke and applying electricity to their testicles was also common. Sergei Middle Eastern jails smell of blood, piss, vomit and ****. But all that seems perfectly acceptable to you. Your troubles (or joys) seem to begin when an American makes a mistake.

Speaking of women and terrorists, it is not unusual to find that females are much more cruel then men. Almost like they think they have something to prove. Sergei is there a chance one might get a hold of you for some up close and personal instruction? I would try not to laugh if you told me about it.

I have not experienced how the current US military situation is working out with the many female soldiers. However I would hope to see ethnic soldiers in CM:SF. In my experience Black soldiers were some of the best NCOs in the armed forces.

Lets nip this one in the bud before it becomes a political flame. Yes, the **** that went on in AG when it was under Iraqi control was really really bad. But that does not make what whet on there under US control any more acceptable or the people in the pictures any less criminal.

But to be fair to the other side this is hardly a damnation of the US effort in Iraq. Anyone who thinks that sort of thing doesn't go on in every prison war zone or not is kidding themselves. The only difference in AG scandal was the preps were unfortunetly stupid enough to photograph themselves comitting the crime.

Now, lets all pretend like Abu Griab wasn't even mentioned (I apologise for my involment) and move on.

[ November 01, 2005, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: Dillweed ]

[Dillweed]

My $0.02 on Women in combat:

Most men would rather die than have their buddies think they are a p*ssy. We migh deny it, but studies indicate otherwise. This is were most of the "will to fight" comes from. Would women do the same? I dunno, and no research has been done to my knoledge. I am inclined to believe they would not, based on my (limited) expirience. Any women on the board to speak to this?

[SSgt Viljuri]

No women for frontline duty. Unit cohesion and fighting spirit are much more important when live ammunition is flying or the IEDs going off. With women present, you tend to have too much on your mind.

Heck, even during reserve rehearses when I spot a female soldier (i.e not those just assigned in supporting duties, like nurses), I feel distracted. Dunno about real combat situations...

[Michael Emrys]

I am reminded of Panama when the US invaded in 1990. There was a company of MPs that came under fire and fought commendably...led by a female captain.

Michael

[hellfish]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

I am reminded of Panama when the US invaded in 1990. There was a company of MPs that came under fire and fought commendably...led by a female captain.

Michael

Or recently a group of Kentucky ARNG MPs led a counterattack on a group of ambushing insurgents, killing a dozen or two and capturing a couple more (along with the insurgent video of the attack). The MPs were led by a female sergeant and a good number of her unit were females as well.

http://www.blackfive.net/main/2005/03/after_action_re.html

Link to captured insurgent video

[lucero1148]

Yeah I was thinking of that very incident as well of female MP's saving thew day in that ambush. I think I read about it in the New York Times and that female NCO kicked butt. Driving her hummer into a insurgent infested trench to get into it and single-handedly clearing it out. Pretty impressive by any account.

Considering the situation where the female soldiers are in vehicles and not running around with 100 pound packs in the game there wouldn't be any physical penalties to notice between her male counterparts in a cmsf battle.

All best

Patrick

[lucero1148]

I stand corrected after re-reading the link - still very impressive seeing the women in combat!

[Sergei]

Originally posted by SSgt Viljuri:

Heck, even during reserve rehearses when I spot a female soldier (i.e not those just assigned in supporting duties, like nurses), I feel distracted. Dunno about real combat situations...

You know, you ARE supposed to eat that dessert pudding...

[Peter Cairns]

I am stunned as to just how sensible this thread has turned out to be, I really was expecting the worst.

I think like ethnic faces, women should be in.

So hows about a comment from BFC, just on the point of inclusion rather than different physical attributes.

Peter.

[jrcar]

My experiance has been that while fewer women WANT to be in combat, those that do are highly competent.

We had mixed officer training, and sure there were more of the women who couldn't "hack it" compared to men in a physical sence there were many who could and did, their grit and detrmination was inspiring. Very rarely did I feel that I was "let down" by a female, and more often it would be a guy that wasn't prepared to pull their weight.

Cheers

Rob

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Abbott:

Yeah before the US took over Abu Ghraib the Iraqi's were ripping out men’s rectums with sticks and cutting off body parts, watch where you step, there’s a thumb! Beating prisoners until their bones broke and applying electricity to their testicles was also common. Sergei Middle Eastern jails smell of blood, piss, vomit and ****. But all that seems perfectly acceptable to you. Your troubles (or joys) seem to begin when an American makes a mistake.

Finished with your agitprop?

What the hell are you raging about? We were talking about female soldiers, and arguably the most well known one is Lynndie English. It was a joke, but I guess for you that is beyond. Twit.

[Vanir Ausf B]

If there are MP units and supply truck and whatever else type of units women are assigned to in the game, then I'd be fine with having them there. But it would be unrealistic for them to show up in tank crews and front line combat squads AFAIK.

[ng cavscout]

The Air Force had a female truck commander of a security element killed, along with her driver, recently in Safwan, by one of those EFP IED's. Females are quite prominent in positions with high "combat potential" such as gunners on organic Convoy Escort Platforms (CEP's pronounced "seps") or gun trucks in Transportation units.

They would be very rare in the frontline combat units that CMSF is supposed to portray.

As to their performance, it is hard to sort the truth from the "female bashing" and the politically correct double-speak.

[MikeyD]

I've found an Army released photo of an Abrams roaring through a Baghdad suburb (early 2004?). The helmeted head sticking out of the loader's hatch is clearly female. There was no mention in the accompanying text of who the person was - whether it was an MP caught on a joy ride or a visiting higher-up being given the full treatment (remember Dukakis riding around in the Abrams for a photo op?) or an actual non-male U.S. tank crewmember.

Here's Pfc. Crystal Jimenez of Company B, 490th Civil Affairs Battalion, 155th Brigade Combat Team. Could she look any younger?

[ November 02, 2005, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[hellfish]

Hm... maybe she was a mechanic or ordnance techie? Got a link to the pic?