Battle of the titan(s)

[Salkin]

I'm thinking about the probably common M1A1 Abrams vs T-72 encounter we will have in CMSF.

I made a quick search and didn't immediately find the answers I was looking for.

Obviously the T-72s most probable way of winning is by outnumbering the Abrams and then flanking it. But what if the syrian player looses all his T-72s but one?

Can the front armour of the Abrams be penetrated by the T-72?

What tactics do I employ to destroy/immobilise the M1A1?

What ammunition will the T-72 load ? Is there a magical super ammunition like the tungsten in WW2 to deal with the M1A1 ?

What ammunition is most effective vs the M1A1, and at what range ?

In this situation neither force has infantry but there is lots of cover and off course the T-72 has an elite crew just to make things interesting .

Enlighten an amateur armchair general and sorry if the questions been asked before...

//Salkin

[gibsonm]

Hint: Don't limit your thinking to just gun ammunition carried by the T-72 variants.

[Dook]

From Global Security

# The 125mm gun common to all the T-72 models is capable of penetrating the M1 Abrams armour at a range of up to 1,000 meters. The more recent BK-27 HEAT round offers a triple-shaped charge warhead and increased penetration against conventional armors and ERA. The BK-29 round, with a hard penetrator in the nose is designed for use against reactive armor, and as an MP round has fragmentation effects. If the BK-29 HEAT-MP is used, it may substitute for Frag-HE (as with NATO countries) or complement Frag-HE. With three round natures (APFSDS-T, HEAT-MP, ATGMs) in the autoloader vs four, more antitank rounds would available for the higher rate of fire.

The infra-red searchlight on the T-72 is mounted on the right side of the main armament, versus on the left on the earlier T-64. The 1K13-49 sight is both night sight and ATGM launch sight. However, it cannot be used for both functions simultaneously. A variety of thermal sights is available. They include the Russian Agava-2, French SAGEM-produced ALIS and Namut sight from Peleng. Thermal gunner night sights are available which permit night launch of ATGMs.

[Salkin]

Hmm....a tank that has to rely on ATGM...what is this world comming to .

Thanks for the posts guys, not what i hoped for but definitely what I asked for .

//Salkin

[Ryujin]

Which T-72 are we talking about? The 125mm is capable of penetrating the M1A1 Abrams side armour, though a frontal kill is unlikely, especially against a M1A1HA. The ATGMs (AT-11B) stand a better chance of a kill at long range and frontal penatration is more likly.

In pretty much every case the T-72 is gonna want to out manouver the M1 and try for a side kill. However, don't under estimate the T-72, even in a frontal fight. Its not a gureented win for the M1. IMHO, the T-72s are gonna need to use the terrain, use amushes and engage at close ranges where they stand the best chance of knocking out the abrams. Especially in urban areas and close terrain where you can force the M1 to expose its flanks. Don't fight Iraqi style in the open if it can be avoided.

If you have infantry and other assets, use them in combination with your T-72s, lure them into a kill zone. Or if your attacking get supporting fire other ATGM platforms.

I'm not a tank expert and if some has better info enighten me too!

Edit, I took to long typing lol

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by Ryujin:

The T-72M and T-72M1 can take direct hits from the 105mm gun on the M1 at 2,000 meters or farther range. Key word is CAN, though you can improve your chances with ERA.

Do the US still field M1s with 105mm guns? I thought the Rheinmetall 120mm gun had been standard for many years by now.

[YankeeDog]

My understanding is that very few, if any, of the 105mm M1s are left in service. My educated guess is that many of the old M1 chassis may have been converted into engineering variants and the like.

But anyway. . . If I had a force of T-72s, facing M1A1s, with no other assets, it's not the gun/armor matchup I would be most concerned about. but rather the situational awareness and C&C advantages the M1A1 has over the T-72. In general, the Russians do not export their most advanced sights and spotting equipment, meaning that all other things being equal, the M1s will spot first, and shoot first.

T-72's gun is deadly enough to at least give you a fighting chance of damaging an M1A1. And, as noted, there are other options. . . seems to me, the real challenge will be getting the first shot off. Once that M1A1 gets a round headed downrange, the chances of the T-72 surviving in good enough condition to return fire are very slim.

I'm guessing that there will be some similarities to what it's like playing with the T-26s and BT-7s Russian tanks in the early days of Barbarossa in CM:BB. Compared many of German tanks like Pz38(t)s and early PzIII variants, the armor/gun stats aren't your biggest problem; if you can hit the German tanks, you have a decent chance of damaging them. It's the C&C and spotting issues (lack of cupoloa, etc.) that really limit what you can do with them.

Cheers,

YD

[Dook]

Not that I am aware of. IIRC, they pulled all the 105mm-armed M1s off the line before Desert Storm and fitted them with the 120 mm gun. Perhaps some Guard units still have the older versions.

[MikeyD]

You've got a 105mm gun on the MGS in the game. Its kind'a fun watching its rounds bounce harmlessly off a distant 'ultimate upgrade' T72M1V TURMS.

Oh, and that version of T72 has reactive armor blocks on the turret roof too. So you can't rely 100% on javelin either.

[Matchstick]

This is obviously some strange usage of the word "fun" I wasn't previously aware of

[Ivan Drago]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

You've got a 105mm gun on the MGS in the game. Its kind'a fun watching its rounds bounce harmlessly off a distant 'ultimate upgrade' T72M1V TURMS.

That kind of gives me hope that some like-minded individuals uses those 'super upgrade' T-72 variants to create an 80's era Fulda Gap scenario using the beautiful editor that comes with the game....sure the skins and unit states would look funny, but that's what your imagination is for

Mmmm....massed T-72's advancing behind artillery through German countryside (do Syrians have any kind of arty in the game? I'm betting not, which kind of spoils some of the fun)...can't wait to upgrade the PC and play that one

[MikeyD]

Syrian's have got rockets and artillery up the you-know-what! Only problem (for them) is their command-and-control sucks so they're not half so nimble at placing fire orders as we are. Remember in 1968 Private Charlie Sheen was able to call in an artillery strike on his own position in 'Platoon'. A Syrian Private wouldn't get access like that, except maybe for his integrated unit mortars... maybe.

[ July 12, 2007, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[Ivan Drago]

That's OK, the Soviets were pretty rigid with their artillery plans as well if I understand Cold War military theory correctly.

The point was huge volumes of shells and rockets raining down and blanketing the countryside, hopefully suppressing the ATGM teams and allowing the spearhead tank formations to close with the enemy and break through the front, which would then be exploited by reinforcements.

That would make for a fun scenario from either side I think...definitely possible for either side to prevail if played right.

I'm betting one of the knowledgeable 'Johns' on this forums could enlighten us on the strategy aspects further.

[dan/california]

In the same general line of questions is there a tank anywhere that can survive a Hellfire or Maverick?

Why hasn't the U.S. started mounting Hellfires on ground vehicles anyway? Iit is a much faster more capable missle than the TOW and can be remotely designated among many other tricks.

[ July 12, 2007, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: dan/california ]

[panzermartin]

Is there a way to take out the Abrams with artillery? With some special rounds or smth?

[Salkin]

Originally posted by panzermartin:

Is there a way to take out the Abrams with artillery? With some special rounds or smth?

I'm guessing you can at least render the Abrams useless with some lucky arty shells , no doubt about it.

//Salkin

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by panzermartin:

Is there a way to take out the Abrams with artillery? With some special rounds or smth?

Sure. Wrap 3 152mm shells together with wire and duct tape, attach them to a pressure plate, and bury them in the road.

[dan/california]

Doing it very carefully and without being observed increases life expectancy of person doning the planting a great deal. :eek:

[panzermartin]

Lol..that is way too risky for me. I prefer the air delivery mostly

[MikeyD]

I've seen old (1980s) pictures of Hellfire mounted on Humvees, probably just for testing. Somebody (Sweden I think) uses a mobile ground-launch Hellfire for anti-landing craft defense. I suppose hellfire's problem is its still got a frontal-attack profile. Still has to contend with ERA and exotic armor. So the U.S. has switched to top attack/overflight weapons.

About Maverick as ground weapon - Maverick is not just old it's HUGE! Not many battlefield infantry weapons out there that requires two men to hoist the round onto the launcher. The U.S. does (did?) have a new big missile in testing for ground use. Can't recall the name, a hyper velocity kinetic energy-only missile. It would probably need a Bradley chassis to cart the launcher around the battlefield! Its either about to be fielded OR has already been cancelled, I don't know which.

[ChrisND]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Remember in 1968 Private Charlie Sheen was able to call in an artillery strike on his own position in 'Platoon'.

Man that was Stone that called the arty strike, not Sheen. Get you history straight!

[flammenwerfer]

"We've got zips in the wire..."

[Sgt Joch]

Talking about rigid artillery plans, it reminds of a story I read about in GW1...

...a colonel was visiting a unit close to the front line when 4 Iraqi shells landed about 200 yds away. The colonel and his staff scattered and hit the deck while the rest of the unit just ignored the shelling. When the colonel, feeling a little sheepish, got back up, he asked the other soldiers why they were ignoring the shelling, he was informed that the same barrage of four shells had been landing like clockwork at the same spot all day and it had gotten to the point that the soldiers hardly noticed it anymore...

[dima]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Oh, and that version of T72 has reactive armor blocks on the turret roof too. So you can't rely 100% on javelin either.

Doesn't Javelin have tandem warhead?

[Guinnessman]

Originally posted by panzermartin:

Is there a way to take out the Abrams with artillery? With some special rounds or smth?

I'm pretty sure the Russians have artillery rounds with anti-armour submunitions...I seem to recall reading something about the Smersh MLRS having a warhead which fired guided submunitions. That'd probably do the trick.