Janster Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 As I was trying to get a mortar round off, having to wade through 5 sets of selections, It struck me... They've happily snuck this game into the RTS category now... So, your up against a whole new slew of mortal enemies on the battlefield. - Company of Heroes - Close Combat Iron Cross - numerous ww2 RTS You know, when you took the step into the RTS league...it is wise to know the tools they use to control your forces. It is not anymore possible to be stuck with turn based command systems. I need 'lasso' to be able to rope units and tell multiple where to go. I need simple and quick ways of ordering arty strikes I need to know my units can fire on targets, without me giving them targeting. I need shift + click waypoints I need right click + drag ability to change facing of units. I need none of the submenues, they must ALL go, in return for a more simple and faster command system. Important orders need to be in my face, so that I can quickly order multiple units in the heat of combat. There is tons more aswell. You have already games that set the standard, when it comes to RTS. Don't try to start from scratch, instead take what they have, and build on it. Your an RTS now, its time to wisen up, and get sharp. Janster 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athkatla Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Originally posted by Janster: As I was trying to get a mortar round off, having to wade through 5 sets of selections, It struck me... They've happily snuck this game into the RTS category now... So, your up against a whole new slew of mortal enemies on the battlefield. - Company of Heroes - Close Combat Iron Cross - numerous ww2 RTS You know, when you took the step into the RTS league...it is wise to know the tools they use to control your forces. It is not anymore possible to be stuck with turn based command systems. I need 'lasso' to be able to rope units and tell multiple where to go. I need simple and quick ways of ordering arty strikes I need to know my units can fire on targets, without me giving them targeting. I need shift + click waypoints I need right click + drag ability to change facing of units. I need none of the submenues, they must ALL go, in return for a more simple and faster command system. Important orders need to be in my face, so that I can quickly order multiple units in the heat of combat. There is tons more aswell. You have already games that set the standard, when it comes to RTS. Don't try to start from scratch, instead take what they have, and build on it. Your an RTS now, its time to wisen up, and get sharp. Janster Wrong, all those games can be won by 'rushers'! Try rushing in this game and see if you can win! You can lasso units, RTFM. You don't have to be stuck with turn based commands, play RT. It takes me about 5 seconds to order arty, wouldn't call that slow. Units DO fire on targets without the player having to order them to. Have you actually played this game? Why shift + click waypoints? You can set numerous waypoints by continually left clicking, and if you want to cancel any just use backspace. Facing units is easy using the command provided. Everything with you is 'I NEED', well wise up mate, this game wasn't developed just for you. I for one am more than happy with the game system as it is, and I know that lots more are too. I was really excited about the release of Company of Heroes, but after playing it for about a week I sold it on Amazon, too gamey and the 'rushers' always won. That sort of game isn't for me and NO WAY can it be compared to CMSF! [ July 29, 2007, 01:25 AM: Message edited by: athkatla ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 please remove RT Asap 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janster Posted July 29, 2007 Author Share Posted July 29, 2007 No, they don't have to remove it, nor does rushing help you in this game. Stop being silly. They just need to make sure the UI supports their new idea of CM. Janster 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 deleted per user request 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athkatla Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Originally posted by AdamL: He's saying he wants extra tools to make it easier to control in RT mode. I WANT a million pounds and a villa in France, but I ain't gonna get it! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lio Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 pretty much all he have stated is in the game. His just misinformed to say the least. And compareing CMSF to CoH is just silly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salkin Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Yeah...I never thought I'd say this , but so far, in my experience, the realtime aspect works fine ! It's my preffered way of playing. //Salkin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fra Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 I believe that RTS-play is a wonderful enhancement !!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hev Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 The problem with realtime is you miss the action, in a CMx1 game you saw every great shot, every lucky nade and every close call. In real time you miss all that. That doesnt mean you cant play qb's against the ai to soak in the eye candy, thats what im doing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salkin Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Originally posted by Hev: The problem with realtime is you miss the action, in a CMx1 game you saw every great shot, every lucky nade and every close call. In real time you miss all that. That doesnt mean you cant play qb's against the ai to soak in the eye candy, thats what im doing. I have to agree with this though, you miss out on some "iron cross"/"uberfinn" moments. //Salkin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunyip Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Originally posted by Janster: I need ... I need ... I need ... I need ... I need ... I need ... What you really need is to find a more compelling way to deliver your arguments. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetchez la Vache Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 The RTS mode is a big step forward for me. WEGO is still abstracted and has it's shortcomings. Be glad that you have a new way to play. And also comparing CMSF RTS to those other games is plainly daft. TOW, maybe. CoH, hahahahahaha! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exel Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 What he is saying that the controls of turn-based strategy game aren't suitable for real-time strategy game. Having given CMSF a try in the RT mode, I have to say I agree. It's not a question of whether some commonly used RTS controls are already in the current system, but how they are usable. RTS means you have less time to give orders to your units (in TBS you have as much time as you want before pressing the Go-button). That means you have to give the same commands faster, or end up giving less commands. The tools have to be such that as little of that limited time as possible is used up by operating the system instead of actually giving commands. That means the UI has to be streamlined, easy and fast to use, so you don't spend your precious time using the interface but commanding the units. There's a reason RTS controls have evolved into certain standards found to be most effective (= less time consuming). CMSF is designed as an RTS, but it's controls aren't. What would be acceptable for a TBS is clumsy and slow for an RTS. Having to click four times just to give a unit a simple movement command is not streamlined. When playing RTS with such controls, you end up fighting the command interface instead of the enemy. RTS controls do not imply click-fest. Good RTS controls imply less clicking for the same commands. See example below. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exel Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Example: Moving a unit to a location and facing it to the direction of the enemy. With CMSF controls: Select unit, select command tab, select move, click to waypoint, click to cancel further waypoints. Select command tab, select face, click to direction. 8 clicks to execute command. With common RTS controls: Select unit, click to waypoint and hold, drag for direction of facing, release. 2 clicks to execute command. With CMSF controls it's four times as many clicks for the same command than your average "click-fest" RTS. Now which game was the click-fest again? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janster Posted July 29, 2007 Author Share Posted July 29, 2007 Bingo! Giving us RTS should mean we have proper RTS controls.. Atm...have you tried the arty interface?? It's a monster! Janster 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 I think the arty interface is freakin awesome. It was even better than I hoped. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exel Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 For RTS the basic move commands should be given by simple mouseclicks on the terrain with just the unit selected (one click for move, double-click for fast move) with SHIFT-clicks for adding multiple waypoints. Clicking close behind the selected vehicle should also automatically register as a reverse command. These are standard commands for all RTS games, regardless of genre (yes that's right, RTS controls are not used by just Warcraft and the like, and nor will using RTS controls turn the game into Warcraft). It would require for the camera controls to be reassigned from the mouse buttons, but that's a minor issue - especially when the camera controls need to be reworked in any case. For more complicated commands you can still use keyboard shortcuts and preferably a CMx1 / CC style mouse context menu. Get rid of the command tabs, have all the (relevant) commands visible in the UI at once. Now you have decent controls that make playing CMSF as an RTS a joy instead of a fight against the UI. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirocco Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 I agree the UI could be more streamlined, and more intuitive. We have all learned certain actions have certain results, and good UI's take advantage of that pre-built learning. CMSF has thrown a lot of that learning out of the window. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janster Posted July 29, 2007 Author Share Posted July 29, 2007 yeah, seriously! And as for the arty interface.. Its nice to have the options, but sometimes I just want those freaking mortars to start shooting. Rest of the UI is terrible atm, its nowhere near what we need to use this game on a RTS level. Janster 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronn Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 /agree RTS-Gaming often the only way to win is the speed of your fingertips or mouseclicks, Wargaming is the exact opposite ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetchez la Vache Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Fair point about the controls for TCP/IP RTS. I was thinking single player where RTS is basically just WEGO in smaller increments. But then I never played TCP/IP - far too complicated for me all those years ago... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athkatla Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Originally posted by Janster: yeah, seriously! And as for the arty interface.. Its nice to have the options, but sometimes I just want those freaking mortars to start shooting. Rest of the UI is terrible atm, its nowhere near what we need to use this game on a RTS level. Janster As a former Mortar Fire Controller in the British Army, I can tell you that mortars don't start firing IRL as soon as you send the mortar line the fire mission, so this is pretty much up to scratch in the game. Also you guys moaning about not being able to work out all your commands in RT mode, there is a pause button (ESC) and you can give orders while paused. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirocco Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 I personally don't see it as an RTS issue, rather as a general UI issue. And I have played the game exclusively in real time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuomio Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Cannot issue orders while paused, when using the Elite difficulty setting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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