c3k Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I've played several test scenarios pitting very low quality Syrians at night, in houses, against U.S. infantry. At the end of these test scenarios the results screen shows several categories. Focusing on the Syrian casualties, we have one called "Missing". What does "Missing" mean? The U.S. infantry searched the Syrian setup houses. The terrain is quite limited. The only Syrians found were KIA. The number of KIA was less than the original forces. I surmise "Missing" means some of them ran off the map? Is this so? If not, what does "Missing" mean? What is the mechanism to determine "Missing"? If they went off the map, why didn't I see them? Is this an after-game internal calculation? (The scenarios end too soon. The timer hasn't run out. I ASSUME the remaining unwounded/un-KIA Syrians get rolled into "Missing" if this is what happens.) BF.C: FIND MY MISSING MEN!!! Regards, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 well i strongly suspect that the paniced enemy soldiers are "missing"... but i dont know for sure. after all they just vanish from the place they where a moment befor. and neither you or me or anyone else, know where they are or when they will ralley(sp!?) to fight again. i would call that missing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splinty Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Missing is CMX2s version of broken, the assumption being that the missing individuals panicked and fled the battlefield and didn't return. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted January 22, 2008 Author Share Posted January 22, 2008 Ah, yes. Obviously, they are "missing". But, this game harps on 1:1 representation. So, how are the missing men represented in game? I mean, HOW did they escape to go missing? The 3 houses were surrounded. There were NO out of LOS locations. They were IN the houses. Then, magically, at the conclusion of the game, they are "Missing". Not "Captured", "Killed", "Wounded", "Turncoats", or any other "x": "Missing". If I were the Syrian CO, sure, I lost 'em all. Some dead, some wounded, some missing. But, as the U.S. CO, I control the ground. I mean, literally. I control it. My men could link arms around the houses, yet some of those slippery Syrians (copyright), have slunk away somehow. So, I know what this means, but it is a fudge, a kludge, it makes it a drudge. In short, with 1:1 representation, the accounting system is wrong. Regards, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 When you get hit square in the forehead with a Javelin you are reported as missing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steiner14 Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan: When you get hit square in the forehead with a Javelin you are reported as missing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan: When you get hit square in the forehead with a Javelin you are reported as missing. Missing, presumed mist. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Secondbrooks Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 When unit is on map's edge or near it and it becomes under fire, men are quite easy to back their bags and become missing (just ceases to be present on map). Longer the distance to map's edge, lower are the changes that troops will go missing. Few minutes being under intense fire already can cause lots of missing men if map's edge is near. I don't know are there other factors, besides morale and experience and leadership. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 "When you get hit square in the forehead with a Javelin you are reported as missing." Just last night I played a game where a running soldier was hit squarely in the center of the chest by a 40mm grenade. Yikes! Good thing we don't have realistic animations depicting the results! Its rare to see (seen more in earlier patches than later?) but occassionally you do spot a supressed unit get a big red exclam (!) over them then disappears off the map. I know people who have been playing for months who have suddenly exclaimed "What the hell was that!?" I think its supposed to be the graphical representation of a soldier crapping his pants, dropping his gun and taking off like a rabbit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 We've always had to fudge things when it comes to extreme individual behaviors. In CMx1 we did it the other way with the whole unit either fighting or fleeing, no individual behavior where one guy in 9 takes off or refuses to move, etc. In CMx2 we now simulate individuals where some guys won't move, some will, others "go missing". What is lacking is an explicit display of the guys taking off in panic and then dealing with the results that may, or may not, follow. The problems for both systems, however, are the same. And that is sectioning off individuals from a unit has a cascading effect on the game programming and hardware requirements. To the game there is no difference between a unit of 9 men and a single guy sectioned off due to panic. It's a unit of 9 in one case and a unit of 1 in another. This means if a unit of 9 breaks up and the 9 guys do their own thing... that one unit is now nine units, which is a net increase of eight. This then means the AI has 8 more things to move around, memory usage has to be increased proportionally, in theory there could be 8 more things requiring LOS/LOF checks, etc., etc. This means that, theoretically, a Syrian force of 30 units could be transformed into one of 200+. Not likely, of course, but we don't have the luxury of programming for best case scenarios only Aside from the hit to the computer this means is that aside from having to program a lot of AI to move guys around outside of player control. Show of hands here... how many people were satisfied with the realism shown in CMx1's code for doing this? How about Close Combat? And don't lie and say "I thought they were completely beyond criticism" because I'll check your past posts on the CMx1 Forums and embarrass you Short of it is... bitch of a thing to program, horrid nightmare of a potential hit to the hardware. We have to be cautious of stuff like this, especially when there is a pretty viable shortcut. Perfect? No, but spending a month programming something explicit and then watching your framerates drop doesn't strike me as a good alternative to have just about the same net game result. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted January 22, 2008 Author Share Posted January 22, 2008 Steve, Okay, so if I understand it, when a guy panics beyond recovery, or "breaks", the game will eliminate that individual. To avoid the processing hit you talk about, the individual disappears. Later, for the results, that individual is counted as "Missing". Is this correct? Do individuals which run off-map also count as "Missing"? Wouldn't it be technically more accurate, since they seem to evaporate, to call them "Sublimated"? Thanks, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topo Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Agree with Steve; this is the right metod IMHO. What about to mantain the big red exclam (!) for all the time, even when the soldier disappear? Saluti. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Originally posted by Topo: Agree with Steve; this is the right metod IMHO. What about to mantain the big red exclam (!) for all the time, even when the soldier disappear? Saluti. I think having the "!" stick around for a minute or so would clear up a lot of confusion around where your men went. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Any soldier that isn't on the map at the end of the scenario, either functional, wounded, or dead, is considered "Missing". That is a broad category to describe all sorts of reasons why the guy hasn't been accounted for. Having the "!" stick around longer isn't a bad idea. Hmmm... maybe a Beta Tester would like to suggest that? Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 About soldiers running off the map. They don't... do they? I don't recall ever seeing a CMx1-style 'map exit'. i have spotten an occassional soldier accidentally place a foot off the map, apologise, then step back on again 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapHappy Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 No, as Topo hints above, an exclamation point forms over the panicing soldier and, eventually he simply disappears into thin air. David Copperfield styl-ee......... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: Any soldier that isn't on the map at the end of the scenario, either functional, wounded, or dead, is considered "Missing". That is a broad category to describe all sorts of reasons why the guy hasn't been accounted for. Having the "!" stick around longer isn't a bad idea. Hmmm... maybe a Beta Tester would like to suggest that? Steve I think this is an example of the things that should also be displayed in the status display; routed, dead, wounded etc. Maybe a beta tester could suggest THAT 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikoyanPT Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 The missing concept isn´t an abstraction, it happens in real life too. Here is the proof, when a couple of combatants suddenly disapear in plain sight. (Warning, graphical) http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4dc14b38b4 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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