Bradley bugs, v1.07

[c3k]

Gents,

Playing Hammertime, v4; a very nice scenario.

My Bradleys have exhibited some, err, undocumented behavior.

1.) After firing all both TOWs, the "Target Light" command disappears. That seems counter-intuitive. I understand if there are multiple levels of targeting and the heaviest level disappears, that only "targeting" remains, but the logic seems convoluted.

2.) And this segues into TOW usage. I have area targeted suspected enemy infantry positions in buildings with Bradleys. They immediately pickle off both TOWs. That's not what I wanted.

That brings us to "Target" and "Target Light". I would have assumed (wrongly) that if I tell a Bradley to "Target Light" it would use its coax. This is not the case. "Target Light" means 25mm Bushmaster. "Target" means, I guess, the heaviest weapon available (TOWs if they're left), then down to the 25mm. How do I just spray MG fire with Bradleys (or tanks for that matter)?

The best solution, in my non-coding world, would be a separate command for special purpose weapons. Things like TOWs, Javelines, AT-4's, Demo charges, (flamethrowers?), Etc. The limited use weapons need to have their use, um, limited.

Thoughts?

Regards,

Ken

[John Kettler]

c3k,

One of the things I wished for in all the CMx1 games and never got was the ability to discretely control bow MGs on AFVs which had them, in keeping with what I've read in various battle accounts. Instead, they remained firmly and maddeningly under AI control. I think your woes are the CMSF version of that same problem.

Apparently a general solution to a complex problem only works well for certain cases but not others. This seems to be particularly true for units equipped with a variety of weapons.

There's no ambiguity when it's a gun tank. Target Light = coax + top mounted MG or MGs if fitted. Target = main gun. No problem there. Change it to a Bradley or something like it, and you are now in the murky world called It Depends. It Depends on what weapon classes you have available and how they're categorized by the game's decision logic, which isn't necessarily the same as your own!

Don't know how hard it is do in terms of code, but I'd make the fire commands explicit: TOW, Bushmaster, coax MG. That way, you know, barring some mysterious AI override, what'll be used. The same sort of thing could be used with infantry possessing small arms, heavier support weapons, and ATGM capability and for helos and tacair. You want explicit control over that ordnance, in terms of what's being fired, when, and where. Danger close is not when you want to find yourself at the mercy of the "Drunken Shotgun of the Gods" (2.75" FFARs), nor do you want an MG providing local security to your ATGM ambush to open fire and compromise same. I really think the cover Armor arc in CMBB and CMAK was an elegant approach to the problem and was appropriate to the period represented.

You issued your instructions via the various arcs, and the AI then applied a series of modifiers based on troop quality, current morale, command status,etc., to see how well the men actually obeyed. There generally wasn't the plethora of capabilities in a single AFV or squad we see now,

which made the decision logic easier to implement.

Also, you either aimed directly at the target or area fired the ground under it or near it.

In my view, TOWs should not just go flying off because the AI operates in a to us bizarre manner.

Firing one should take an explicit command, unless

an armored threat suddenly appears. In that case,

I'd be fine with a potential AI intervention representing a tactical quick reaction drill. This could well be vital for PBEM, where the player's otherwise locked into some existing command or group thereof.

Speaking of this, one of the things that you could do in CMBB but can't in CMSF is to advance with the hull pointed one way and the turret another. This allows an AFV formation to provide mutual support via each AFV's covering an assigned sector. Worked like a champ in the CMBB Beta Demo at ACTOR's house when I led my team into the teeth of the Russian defenses at Kursk and was able to fight in all directions while advancing. By setting overlapping arcs, I was able to smash one AT gun after another that opened fire on my force. Took a few casualties, but shattered the defense!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Melnibone]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

Speaking of this, one of the things that you could do in CMBB but can't in CMSF is to advance with the hull pointed one way and the turret another.

I thought you could do that in CMSF - surely a movement command combined with a target arc would do that?

[JohnO]

Originally posted by Melnibone:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John Kettler:

Speaking of this, one of the things that you could do in CMBB but can't in CMSF is to advance with the hull pointed one way and the turret another.

I thought you could do that in CMSF - surely a movement command combined with a target arc would do that? </font>

[gibsonm]

Well the 1.06 Read me says:

• Autocannon on the Bradley and BMP-2 are used in "Target Light" commands. This is useful if you want to be certain the vehicle will not use missiles.

So from that if things haven't changed in 1.07 (and I don't think they have) the decreasing scale would be:

Target = TOW, 25mm or Coax

Target Light = 25mm or Coax

So to save TOW's use Target Light, even though "light" here is still some pretty good hitting power.

Also to confirm you certainly can set a covered arc different to the direction of travel and the turret will traverse to be in the centre of the arc relative to the axis of the hull as the hull changes direction.

[MarkEzra]

I am sure that John Kettler has the game and has played the game. John is a long time contributor to CM and has posted many valuable threads through the years. His comments regarding Fire arcs are in error. A few of us do that...make mistakes

[Erwin.Rommel]

Er,find a small bug,in 1.07,bradley use APFSDS vs bunkers,sometimes,Abrams do the same thing.

[c3k]

gibsonm,

Thanks, I have the manual and the PDF. At the moment I'm only using it to try to decipher the artillery icons with little success. I should've looked there.

Although, that still wouldn't solve what I regard as the overarching issue of units using special munitions for non-special targets. ("Target Light" would limit TOW's, but what if I don't want to burn through my 25mm ammo?)

Also, why does "Target Light" disappear when the TOW's are depleted? (Hmmm, if "Target Light" is a restriction on the overall "Target" command, then the restriction doesn't make sense once the ammo being restriced is gone, so in that sort of logic the present implementation makes convoluted sense.) Why not make "Target" disappear? That would link "Target" and the TOW's.

And please, how do I use JUST the coax?

Also, when can an Abram's gunner pop his head up and man his machinegun?

(Cover arc and movement commands can be used together to offset the turret from 12 o'clock.)

Thanks,

Ken

[gibsonm]

Ken,

I didn't write the code so I can't really comment with any authority.

I guess "Target Light" disappears once you have fired TOW's because the differentiation is gone (i.e. if there are no TOW's then based on the choices I listed above there is no longer any difference between Target and Target Light). I think to have the classifications change as ammunition changes from:

Target = TOW, 25mm or Coax

Target Light = 25mm or Coax

to

Target = 25mm or Coax

Target Light = Coax

Would just get too complex.

Also for what its worth the Gunner in a M1 sits in front of and beneath the crew commander so he never mans the MG on the left hand hatch.

That is used by the Loader and usually for air sentry roles when conducting a move out of contact.

In contact the loader is normally down in the turret serving the gun.

Yes he can use it to suppress close targets but that means the gun is no longer being loaded and I'd suggest that a a 120mm APERS round does more suppression (without exposing the crew) than a 7.62mm MG.

Not to say it would never happen but I don't think its SOP (unless the ROE limit the use of main armament for some reason).

[Wicky]

If JK has CMSF then it is a top secret version that runs on an imac with a G4 waffley bollox processor

Originally posted by MarkEzra:

I am sure that John Kettler has the game and has played the game. John is a long time contributor to CM and has posted many valuable threads through the years. His comments regarding Fire arcs are in error. A few of us do that...make mistakes

[c3k]

gibsonm,

D'OH on the gunner comment. In my mind I thought of the loader. I typed gunner. You are correct.

However, I can come up with antipersonnel area fire missions when I do NOT want to fire off one of my limited 17 HEAT rounds. I'd love to burn through some of the thousands of 7.62 and .50 cal rounds though. Gunner on the coax, TC on the .50 (which ones are remote?) and the loader on his 240B. That would present a lot of area target suppression. With a HEAT round loaded, the gunner can still fire the main gun with only a few seconds delay.

I want to CONTROL the missiles and big booms. Or, at least put a clamp on them (AI override as needed). If a T-72 rolls up to a Bradley I want a TOW and smoke followed by reverse. I do NOT want my TOW's fired off at an area target for suppression. (Okay, TARGET LIGHT does that. Still seems like an oxymoron if I'm using the MAIN armament.)

Regards,

Ken

[gibsonm]

Ken,

Well I guess it depends on whether you classify the TOW or the 25mm as "main".

Certainly if we could reload TOW it might make a big difference (news on this soonish I hope - how is that for vague).

[c3k]

(Insert smarmy comment about hints from Beta testers. )

Yeah, main or not. I still hold that certain munitions are not used on certain targets. Usually. Area target for TOW could be used. If I knew a platoon was holed up in a house, or if I thought a bunker might be occupied, fine, let me loose a TOW on it. But MAKE me order it! I'd even be satisfied with having to specify TOW for ANY target, even enemy tanks. (Or at least I'd be happy until my Bradley was killed midturn by a tank and it withheld its TOW. Then I'd complain. )

Arrgh.

Thanks,

Ken

[the Fighting Seabee]

Fixing these things would be great. The most annoying bug for me is when I have a Bradley fire a TOW into a building and immediately cease fire. Every single time it launches and wastes the second TOW missile. Basically you have to REALLY want to blow the crap out of something or you're just wasting valuable missiles.

[dima]

What's the big deal with Target Light using 25mm gun? It's got so much ammo that you can waste it for a whole turn without a second thought. It is certainly better than using MG.

[John Kettler]

JohnO,

I don't have the game yet, but I have been actively involved in contributing to it in every way I could since we first heard what was coming.

See, for example, my stack of posts in the Syrian Threat threads. My rig, as Wicky so wittily notes, simply isn't up to CMSF, is an old 800 MHz G4 lampshade dual boot iMac, and presently can't run any PC program. I will in due course have an Intel chipped iMac, but am also looking forward to an OS X version of the game. Since I want to play HistWar: Les Grognards and TOW, neither of which has a Mac version nor will have (barring a port), I'm forced to go this direction. That said, recently someone made a post in which he lamented that he couldn't advance in one direction while watching for threats in another sector. That's why I chimed in, since I figured the player would know what he was and wasn't able to do. Apparently, I was in error, for which I apologize.

Mark Ezra,

Thank you for the vote of confidence and the kind words regarding my contributions over the years to CM. I'd love to be playing this game, but right now, I keep my hand in by regularly reading the posts here and on the related boards and contribute what I can, when I can, to the various discussions. This primarily has been in the area of weapons and weapon capabilities, imagery to support modders, source material to get people up to speed on an unfamiliar to many topic, though I've delved a bit lately into other venues, such as identifying the Transnistrian War as a viable candidate for a game mod while allowing the desert weary to decamp to Europe and providing enough material to prime the relevant creative pumps. You've doubtless also seen what I've said lately about barbed wire, infantry tasks which IMO should be doable in the game, my queries regarding the difference between in game vulnerability on the roof vs. observed U.S. actions in Iraq and other matters.

I spent years as a professional military analyst, and CMSF has given me an opportunity to use what I know in a way that's both educational and fun. One major disadvantage this time, though, is that unlike for CMBB and CMAK, there was no Beta Demo anywhere near me. Would love to actually see the game in action! Consequently, all I have to go on are various posts and reviews, screenshots and video clips. Weak fare until I finally get my own copy and the rig to run it! By then, the game will be in close to/final form, and I'll be able to concentrate on war fighting instead of bug chasing. Personally, I'm intrigued by what the U.S. has and could do, all the wonderful stuff in the modules to come, but I'm really itching to play the thorn in the side jihadist and see what the modders are able to do for combat in other locales. Numerous Red on Red possibilities present themselves, and won't FROGFOOT and HIND strikes be fun?

Be of good cheer, for I shall soon enter the lists!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Wiggum]

I cant get my Bradleys to firing theyr TOW on enemy armor.

Target and Target light, both dont work.

Is theyr a special trick ?

[gibsonm]

Not really.

I presume your Bradley is static?

In real life there is a limitation of no more than +/- 10 degrees )i.e. the Bradley has to be almost level to fire (to prevent damage to the wires) but this isn’t modelled (yet - one can hope).

If you have line of sight and can target then you should be OK.

You haven’t already fired two TOW from that vehicle have you (the reload sequence isn’t there yet)?

[Cpl Steiner]

I would also like to see the TOW launcher animated correctly. At the moment it is deployed in launch position even when the vehicle is moving. It is supposed to be folded over when not in use. I believe the model animation is already in place but BFC never managed to put in the code to implement it. Well, it's high time they did!

[abneo3sierra]

Probably should not area fire the TOW anyway.

I have had a few strangish things happen in my first week with this game, but most every time, it was a "game thing" that I was just reading or doing incorrectly. gibson, do I understand you correctly that TOW reload may be implemented?

[gibsonm]

No sorry, its on my personal “like to see list” (just like the launcher unit folding down when not in use).

Don’t know when / if it will happen but it would be nice.

[abneo3sierra]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

No sorry, its on my personal “like to see list” (just like the launcher unit folding down when not in use).

Don’t know when / if it will happen but it would be nice.

Ahh..well, add my name to your petition