British helmets

[mikeadams]

Sort of off-topic (unless modeled in the game). Does anyone know what was the original rationale for the flying saucer construction of WWI and II British helmets. Why did they finally abandon the design?

[M1A1TC]

When turned upside down, it doubles as a plate for mutton and beans

[flamingknives]

Easy to manufacture and the wide brim is good for stopping overhead fragments without interfering with head movement.

On the negative side, it doesn't sit on the head in a stable fashion and the wide brim is good for catching blast.

[Holman]

Keeps the rain off the pipe and mustache.

[Michael Emrys]

I believe it was patterned loosely on a medieval helmet worn by English footmen. Similarly, the German "coal scuttle" helmets of late WW I and WW II were loosely patterned after helmets worn by German-speaking men at arms during the Middle Ages. So each country was reaching back into its past by the middle of the second decade of the 20th. century and continued to do so until mid-century almost. Or I could be talking out my ass. Either way, it's a nice theory, isn't it?

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

For those of you fondly attached to the "Talking Out My Ass" theory on the matter, I must disappoint you by providing an image of one version of the British style I was talking about:

Here's another image of that type, though I cannot guarantee that this was of English manufacture:

And here's a really good image of one:

The German style of helmet that I referred to is rather more difficult to find images of. But here is one in the upper left of this quartet:

Michael

[Stuka]

I think we'll just let your ass speak for itself hmmmm?

It does a rather better job of speaking than you do.

[M1A1TC]

Similar things was happening in Soviet Union

Middle-Age Russian Knights

End of WW1 Soviet soldiers

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Hmm. It is possible that they are based on Medieval helmets. However, such things would have been a choice of a particular Medieval helmet style rather than an "English" or "German" or "Russian" style. Most helmet (and armor, and sword, and just about every type of Medieval military equipment) designs that were effective were copied by the armorers of other nations.

In particular, the "English" helmets were, indeed, used by the English, but they were also used all over Europe during the Middle Ages. The German helmet certainly had its origins in Germany, but I believe the style was exported all over Europe. The "Russian" style was also used all over Europe (and the Middle East as well) over the centuries.

So it is possible that they chose to model their helmets after Medieval ones, but it would have been a choice of a general helmet style rather than choosing a particularly "English" one.

-FMB

[M1A1TC]

I know this

Certain Russian military heroes are portrayed wearing the type of conical helmet you see above in my post. Toward the end of WW2 the Czar of Russia wanted to update the uniforms, create a more patriotic feeling in the troops. Thousands of uniforms, including those hats were stockpiles, but didnt get a chance to be distributed. After the revolution Soviets discovered the uniforms and hats, added some red stars, and called the hats "budenovka" after a Soviet general Budenov.

I know that Hitler tried to bring same patriotic feeling in German people by designing the symbology and uniforms, including the helmets. They might not be all "German", but they represent typical German helmet

PS: I made a mistake. Meant to say "end of WW1"

[ May 06, 2008, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: M1A1TC ]

[flammenwerfer]

Look at these poor bastards.

[SgtMuhammed]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

I could be talking out my ass.

Michael

Didn't we establish this as fact a LONG time ago?

(I kid because I love.)

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by SgtMuhammed:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

I could be talking out my ass.

Michael

Didn't we establish this as fact a LONG time ago?

(I kid because I love.) </font>

[JonS]

.

[ May 06, 2008, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[M1A1TC]

Sorry, I meant end of WW1, not WW2

Stalin didnt even come in the picture at that time.

[JonS]

[handihoc]

As long as they don't spend too much time polishing them, does it really matter?

[M1A1TC]

I like polishing my helmet

[Molotov Cocktail]

Originally posted by M1A1TC:

Sorry, I meant end of WW1, not WW2

Stalin didnt even come in the picture at that time.

Also in WW2 during Winter War 1939-1940, Soviet Union against Finland

Winter War from Wikipedia

Battle of Raate Road from Wikipedia

Battle of Raate Road was part of Battle of Suomussalmi

During battle of Suomussalmi two Soviet Divisions were annihilated (other one was 44th Ukrainian Rifle division which invaded Poland 1939) and one NKVD regiment

Soviet prisoners after Raate Battle of Winter War and Finnish ski soldiers "White Death" as Soviets called Finns with white snowsuits

US documentary Fire And Ice about Winter War 1939-1940

[ May 06, 2008, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Molotov Cocktail ]

[LongLeftFlank]

Keegan gives a fair amount of space to military fashion in "A History of Warfare". Starting in the 1700s, it became fashionable among Western armies to pattern regimental gear (including helmets, whose 19th century function was as decorative as protective) using elements inspired by historical or contemporary warriors with ferocious reputations.

The North African Zouaves and the Cossacks, as well as (often fanciful) images of Magyar and Mongol horsemen, Roman legionaries, Gothic warriors and yes, medieval knights and men-at-arms all provided fashion inspiration for numerous European regiments in the form of bright tunics, fur hats or kepis, braided horsetails or crests and helmet spikes or crests. Most famous were the dashing French hussars and cuirassiers and the British Guards regiments and others.

[Pandur]

the "eisenhut" or "ironhat" wasnt only used by english footman. it was a popular design on the whole continent.

it was easy to made, didnt hindered sight(archers) and breathing.

the later sallet´s or "Schaller´s"(comes from Schale->bowl), was more used on horseback to Harnischen or plate armor. the early sallets had a "open" face area and originated out to the ironhats.

most sourches say that the ironhat was most probably "designed" around the 11th or 12th century in byzaninum and did grow in popularity over the next 300 years and made its way into europe.

[Mikko H.]

Soviet prisoners after Raate Battle of Winter War and Finnish ski soldiers "White Death" as Soviets called Finns with white snowsuits

The "White Death" part is, AFAIK, almost certainly myth. This has been discussed on the Axis History Forum, and apparently there's no evidence that the Red Army soldiers really used that name of the Finnish soldiers.

BTW, are there _any_ known cases where a name allegedly given to a type of soldier/piece of equipment/etc by the enemy has been proven true? AFAIK neither the Kaiser or any German general ever called the BEF 'a contemptible little army', the Japanese never called the Corsair 'the whispering death' etc. Were the British soldiers of the 8th Army in North Africa really called 'the desert rats' by the Germans?

Sorry for hijacking the thread; this just is something I've been wondering quite a time.

[flamingknives]

AFAIK the Whispering Death was ascribed to the Bristol Beaufighter, and the Desert Rats took their name from their insignia.

[Michael Emrys]

ISTR that the Corsair is alleged to have been nicknamed the Whistling Death by the Japanese, due to the sound of the air stream passing through the wingroot oil coolers. Whether any of that is factually correct or the product of some writer's imagination I have no idea though.

Michael

[Secondbrooks]

Originally posted by Mikko H.:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Soviet prisoners after Raate Battle of Winter War and Finnish ski soldiers "White Death" as Soviets called Finns with white snowsuits

The "White Death" part is, AFAIK, almost certainly myth. </font>