Exceedingly bad lag for specific scenarios, not system related

[ChrisND]

While playtesting one of my playtesters and I have noticed that two of my scenarios has a low framerate that seems to be out of proportion to what is expected. They are both about 2-3 co. of infantry total on a medium-sized map, and for me, they produce noticeable but manageable low frame rate, but for my playtester the framerate is completely unplayable at lowest possible settings, even minutes into the game.

The odd part is, we both play scenarios have that many more units, on much larger maps, with high frame rates. For example, I can play Armour Attacks, and the last scenario of the Hasrabit campaign with full forces, and maxed graphics with zero frame rate problems. Yet these smaller scenarios are causing a ton of it. Especially near the end of the scenario.

So my question is: Are there more factors than just the amount of units and map size that decrease frame rate? Do buildings lower frame rate? The two scenarios in question have large buildings present.

ETA: Forgot to qualify that this is during single player play.

ETA II: Smoke is not much of a factor in either scenario.

[ June 03, 2008, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Normal Dude ]

[SgtMuhammed]

Do you have lots of foliage? Trees and stuff can slow you down, especially if lots of troops are running about.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Originally posted by SgtMuhammed:

Do you have lots of foliage? Trees and stuff can slow you down, especially if lots of troops are running about.

I'm his playtester, and I'm also playtesting Paper Tiger's new campaign. PT's maps have way, way, way more trees than ND's maps do, and while they slow down a little, they're more than manageable.

-FMB

[handihoc]

Multiple buildings definitely lower framerates. Any decent size urban maps have a significant effect.

It's been improved somewhat with recent updates, but the problem still remains, and affects even high-end multi-core systems like mine (that is, sometimes - apparently not all systems suffer the same lag).

[hoolaman]

Any way to post the scenario so we can see?

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[Paper Tiger]

It's probably the buildings. When I was playtesting the final mission of the campaign, I found that, whenever there was just one building in the picture, the fps dropped drastically. If I moved the camera to look offboard (very boring), fps shot up to 40+fps, even with all the action going on. Swing round to look back on map with no buildings, fps dropped to around 12-16fps but, get a building in and it brought it right down to between 6-8.

One building itself doesn't do this, and neither does a small village. But it seems there is some critical point when frames plummet when building density passes a certain level. Hasrabit town is really dense with lots of high walls.

As for trees, you might find that the denser foliage types produce lower frames than the less denser ones. I tend to use type E trees very liberally and they don't slow things down too badly but they sure don't look as good as type D ones.

[ChrisND]

Hoolaman, I will post some screenshots in a bit.

I'm gonna do some experiments with replacing certain things and seeing how the frame rate changes.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Originally posted by Paper Tiger:

It's probably the buildings. When I was playtesting the final mission of the campaign, I found that, whenever there was just one building in the picture, the fps dropped drastically. If I moved the camera to look offboard (very boring), fps shot up to 40+fps, even with all the action going on. Swing round to look back on map with no buildings, fps dropped to around 12-16fps but, get a building in and it brought it right down to between 6-8.

One building itself doesn't do this, and neither does a small village. But it seems there is some critical point when frames plummet when building density passes a certain level. Hasrabit town is really dense with lots of high walls.

As for trees, you might find that the denser foliage types produce lower frames than the less denser ones. I tend to use type E trees very liberally and they don't slow things down too badly but they sure don't look as good as type D ones.

Unfortunately, I don't think it's that easy. My framerate remained at 0, 1, or 2 even when I was looking at nothing. It doesn't have anything to do with what's on the screen. That's why it's so baffling! :mad:

-FMB

[birdstrike]

Could it be, a large number of buildings requires exceeding resources for calculating the LOS for each unit? (more buildings = more obstacles to be taken into calculations) Which would explain why the framerate is so low, no matter what the player is looking at?

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Originally posted by birdstrike:

Could it be, a large number of buildings requires exceeding resources for calculating the LOS for each unit? (more buildings = more obstacles to be taken into calculations) Which would explain why the framerate is so low, no matter what the player is looking at?

Seems possible, but if it is, it would have to be some kind of weird ratio question with units to buildings. When I removed half the enemy OOB from the scenario, everything ran like a dream. I've played maps with denser urban terrain with no problems, and I've played maps with more units with no problems.

Thanks for the input so far, though!

-FMB

[DzrtFox]

I've had a similar problem in a couple of PBEM games I've tried to start. When I load up the file from my opponent and try to issue orders, the framerate and input lag is so bad I can't do anything. This happens on maps that run completely fine in single-player mode.

I posted something about it in the tech support forum but haven't seen any response.

[MikeyD]

My framerate killer is elevations. You got mountains? Lots of craters or ditches? Every time you make a dent in the terrain the game has to work that much harder. I recall even back in the simpler CMx1 days filling a hillside with craters would practically bring the game to a stop.

[ChrisND]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

My framerate killer is elevations. You got mountains? Lots of craters or ditches? Every time you make a dent in the terrain the game has to work that much harder. I recall even back in the simpler CMx1 days filling a hillside with craters would practically bring the game to a stop.

No, the maps in question are almost flat.

ETA: In a couple of days when I have more time I am going to run some experiments to see if I can narrow down the source.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

As the person who's primarily having the biggest problems, I thought I'd go through the issue in more depth.

Here's how it happens. I start up the scenario. Go through briefing and setup. Fine frame rate. Start the mission, give orders, stuff happens. Fine frame rate. Then, suddenly, at some point (in one scenario, about five minutes in, in another, 10-15 minutes in), FPS nose-dives from at least 9 and usually more to 0, 1, or 2. This persists for way too long. Then, at some point, FPS returns to normal, only to tank again in a few minutes. This continues until I get frustrated, quit the game, and send ND an email.

This happens regardless of any graphics settings. I've tried V-Sync on and off, I've run the gamut of texture and 3D Model qualities, and I've set the resolution down to the minimum.

The maps in question: One of them is fairly large, maybe 1 km x 5-600 m or so, with one large open area and then some dense urban terrain covering the rest of it. The other is medium to small, only about 600 x 400 m, all dense urban terrain. The terrain I don't think is the problem, though. I've played on bigger, denser urban maps than this without a hitch before. To put this into perspective, the second-to-last mission of the TF Thunder campaign runs fine for me.

ND can fill you in on the units involved if it would help.

Hope this helps! I really appreciate all the feedback, guys.

-FMB

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Double post.

[George MC]

Originally posted by Field Marshal Blücher:

As the person who's primarily having the biggest problems, I thought I'd go through the issue in more depth.

Here's how it happens. I start up the scenario. Go through briefing and setup. Fine frame rate. Start the mission, give orders, stuff happens. Fine frame rate. Then, suddenly, at some point (in one scenario, about five minutes in, in another, 10-15 minutes in), FPS nose-dives from at least 9 and usually more to 0, 1, or 2. This persists for way too long. Then, at some point, FPS returns to normal, only to tank again in a few minutes. This continues until I get frustrated, quit the game, and send ND an email.

This happens regardless of any graphics settings. I've tried V-Sync on and off, I've run the gamut of texture and 3D Model qualities, and I've set the resolution down to the minimum.

The maps in question: One of them is fairly large, maybe 1 km x 5-600 m or so, with one large open area and then some dense urban terrain covering the rest of it. The other is medium to small, only about 600 x 400 m, all dense urban terrain. The terrain I don't think is the problem, though. I've played on bigger, denser urban maps than this without a hitch before. To put this into perspective, the second-to-last mission of the TF Thunder campaign runs fine for me.

ND can fill you in on the units involved if it would help.

Hope this helps! I really appreciate all the feedback, guys.

-FMB

Could you post your PC hardware details e.g. graphics card, processor etc? Also what the names of the scenarios are. I could also check out what FPS I am getting just to confirm if the same thing happens with the scenarios.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

The scenarios are from Normal Dude's unreleased TF Panther campaign, scenarios 1 and 9. ND, do you think George could have a look at them?

My specs:

Dell XPS M1210 (laptop)

Intel 2600 2.16 GHz dual core processor

2 GB RAM

nVidia GeForce Go 7400

Thanks!

-FMB

[Battlefront.com]

FMB,

Do you routinely have a lot of stuff running in the background? The amount of available RAM can have dramatic up/down effects like you described, especially when the map has heavy need of LOS/LOF checks.

Steve

[ChrisND]

I will send the scenario files to George Mc.

Also the screenshots for these scenario are already located in my Task Force Panther thread in the development forum: first scenario is the screenie of an airstrip on first page, the second is a city with big buildings and a park on the second near the end of the page.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

FMB,

Do you routinely have a lot of stuff running in the background? The amount of available RAM can have dramatic up/down effects like you described, especially when the map has heavy need of LOS/LOF checks.

Steve

No, except when I'm working on creating a scenario, I only have CM:SF running.

-FMB

[Paper Tiger]

FMB - "Then, suddenly, at some point (in one scenario, about five minutes in, in another, 10-15 minutes in), FPS nose-dives from at least 9 and usually more to 0, 1, or 2. This persists for way too long. Then, at some point, FPS returns to normal, only to tank again in a few minutes. This continues until I get frustrated, quit the game, and send ND an email"

Only the designer will be able to confirm this but it sounds like there are reinforcements arriving and their arrival really does hit your frames badly. If ND can confirm that, it's a VERY easy problem to solve.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Originally posted by Paper Tiger:

FMB - "Then, suddenly, at some point (in one scenario, about five minutes in, in another, 10-15 minutes in), FPS nose-dives from at least 9 and usually more to 0, 1, or 2. This persists for way too long. Then, at some point, FPS returns to normal, only to tank again in a few minutes. This continues until I get frustrated, quit the game, and send ND an email"

Only the designer will be able to confirm this but it sounds like there are reinforcements arriving and their arrival really does hit your frames badly. If ND can confirm that, it's a VERY easy problem to solve.

At one point in one scenario, it is reinforcements that seem to cause the lag--but then I kill them all and the lag stays.

I just opened up the other scenario in the editor and there are no enemy reinforcements.

-FMB

[ChrisND]

George checked out the scenarios and says that he sees some sort of problem as well. The files have been passed on to BFC.

ETA: Something worth noting, just to hammer the point in a bit further , is that there is another Task Force Panther scenario with a 1.6 km x 1.7 km map, with many elevation changes and a decent amount of buildings, and almost 3 co. worth of infantry, that runs perfectly fine.

[ June 05, 2008, 03:21 AM: Message edited by: Normal Dude ]

[Battlefront.com]

Yup, we're looking into it

Steve