Immersion and gaming

[M1A1TC]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:

I am the guy who begged and begged for them to bring back the right-click menu, untill they did (in some way). Your welcome

Even if you had anything at all to do with it, Steve would never admit it.

You're welcome. PS - did you ever get that beta team slot you so stated that you so richly deserve? *wink* </font>

[vincere]

I've experienced pretty much all of Cpl Steiner's points in Al Amarah, and I'm only 15 minutes into it wego. The guy jumping over the wall on loop, and running around the enemy side of the building to get get in when they've run past a door I intended them to use is frustrating. It's also one of the reasons I havn't tried pbem yet.

I guess on balance, and overall 1:1 is more imersive and will be when the Tac AI is improved. I do find myself watching almost all of the action for each squad. I really hope that major improvements in the future releases are made available for CMSF and its modules.

As for imersive game experience there are other aspects that could be debated that are not about improving Tac AI or debating core design decisions.

Things that i think would improve imersion for me are:

1. as dorish sugested more animations.

2. More voice stuff. Shouts of magazine, the odd name being called out, for example.

3. Kills.

4. Kias Wias having a difference.

5. Aircraft sounds.

6. Helo resupply, and casevac. Yeah I know Steve said no helos in their area of combat, but I disagree on two points, the reading I done, and pure gaming experience.

7. Not least Enemeny Strategic AI using manouvre more.

[Darkmath]

5 months ago, I was tempted to think CMSF was "flawed beyond patching" , and I played only for debugging, not for fun.

After 1.06, CMSF became really playable for me.

The engine handle basic things correctly in most situations,IMHO.

However, as it was often pointed out, 1:1 representation makes bug/ weird behaviour appearing more blatantly then abstracted engine.

What still kills immersion for me is the clipping model. If a vehicle can't go through a line of abandonned vehicle blocking a whole street, then it CAN'T go through (unless US Army has developped a kind of tunneling efect device for their M1 ). The same could be said about infantry, while more acceptable, which makes hand to hand combat impossible to implement.

Here, 1:1 representation require a rigorous collision detection model, otherwise the player will feel the game is going wrong.

[vincere]

The same could be said about infantry, while more acceptable, which makes hand to hand combat impossible to implement.

That would be such a loss. The occassional hand to hand combat were hign points in CMBB, even if it was only the sound of shovel.

[SgtMuhammed]

Originally posted by carlR:

It kind of bothers me what Steve says about graphics issues in the paragragh above.ie that it is the card not coping. I get all these issues (zooming trees/flickering shadows/disappearing terrain so that only the underlay shows/trenches that change colour and breadth according to camera position/instant redraws etc)with an 8800gtx (768MB) which is one of the most powerful cards on the market. This card should be able to cope. I have lowered the settings and switched drivers but this does not help (in fact it increases the number of problems). And I find all these graphical glitches to be completely distracting....

The problems with the 8800 series of cards is with nVidia's drivers. BFC is trying to work around them but there is only so much one can do. BFC doesn't own nVidia so they have no control over what that company does with its products.

[Battlefront.com]

Dorosh,

Now that all your hysterical ranting about me is over, name one person who feels that way and has expressed same. Just one, Steve. One person who has told you to "drop dead on the spot."

Is that the best you can do? Pretty lame there Dorosh. Of course nobody LITERALLY said "drop dead", but you know damned well what I speak of. Don't insult your own intelligence by trying to pretend you don't.

And even if so, it certainly wasn't in this thread, so why bring it up? Emotional blackmail? Can't win a fair fight?

What fight Dorosh? You've run away from every single engagement with me, no matter how polite it has been. Yet you continue to post extreme and strongly worded opinions and then not engage in a rebuttal to challenges.

You're passing from just being an ass to being a troll. You are an intellectual coward too, trying to pass yourself off as knowledgeable but yet running away from any sort of challenge to your points. You are a coward and I think I'm completely justified in calling you such.

Don't think the title fits? Then debate instead of trolling. And don't even try the "I won't debate you Steve because you'll just attack me" lame excuse. If you REALLY are avoiding a debate with me because of some sort of thin-skinned fear (which is a laugh to anybody that knows you're posting style), then let me hang myself with my own words and prove you correct.

So yeah, I'm calling you out. Either grow up and debate your points with me, since they are so obviously aimed at me, or leave this Forum and go to another one where you can say anything you want without being challenged.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Just curious guys... is it just me, or does it seem like Dorosh is going out of his way to provoke me into banning him? I mean, does anybody else here think he is actually interested in having a debate, or just spouting off and then taking cheap shots at me? I know the unsolicited emails I've received this morning from people wonder how I find the patience to put up with him

Steve

[Zulu]

In my opinion, it's not you. MD is doing his best to antagonize you. This is another occasion where he craps all over CMSF and disappears when you counter his arguements.

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[vincere]

Steve, it seems like there's history there that some of us are not aware of.

[Battlefront.com]

carlR,

It kind of bothers me what Steve says about graphics issues in the paragragh above.ie that it is the card not coping.

It's always difficult to say what any individual's problems may be based on symptoms alone, so you have to keep my previous comments in perspective with that. In your case, as you rightly point out, your card is plenty powerful. Unfortunately, drivers are a big issue and there is only so much we can do. There are countless examples of people having identical cards and getting very different results from them even though they are using the same version of Windows and the same nVidia drivers. The reason is that there are tons of low level hardware issues that come into play and therefore the specifics of each computer's subsystems are very important.

That being said, we will keep trying to optimize and refine the graphics code as we go along. We don't feel we're at the point of diminishing returns with optimizations yet. So don't worry too much about things not getting better for you

M1A1TankCommander,

No, never did

Note that Dorosh has a bug up his butt, for some reason, about giving credit where credit is due. Indeed, you were one of the reasons why we put in a popup menu for Commands since you were one that was voicing support for such a feature. So were dozens of others. As always, customer feedback is listened to and acted upon when we feel it is, at least on balance, in the best interests of the game. In the case of the popup we felt that it was and that's why it was included. I don't know why Dorosh is so obsessed about individuals getting credit for something that no one individual was responsible for.

And even if I had been offered it, I doubt many things would have changed at the time of release. Seems like meeting the deadline was the priority to releasing a top-notch product

Yeah, unfortunately deadlines suck. We've taken steps to lessen their impact in the future. As for having an impact on the game's final state, testers had a HUGE impact on the shape of the game and its features. Well, except for those testers (well, actually "tester) that didn't voice any opinions during testing, but then can't seem to stop the mouth running after

Vincere,

I guess on balance, and overall 1:1 is more imersive and will be when the Tac AI is improved. I do find myself watching almost all of the action for each squad. I really hope that major improvements in the future releases are made available for CMSF and its modules.

No fears there. Just look at what we've done for CM:SF so far, then recall what we did for previous CM games along the way. We continually improve things over time because time, unfortunately, is the major thing we need.

As for imersive game experience there are other aspects that could be debated that are not about improving Tac AI or debating core design decisions.

Very true. There are dozens of good ideas on how to improve immersion that are not directly related to the TacAI or core design issues. Some are too "expensive" to implement (usually that expense is time), unfortunately, despite everybody probably agreeing that inclusion would be a good thing.

Darkmath,

The engine handle basic things correctly in most situations,IMHO.

However, as it was often pointed out, 1:1 representation makes bug/ weird behaviour appearing more blatantly then abstracted engine.

Agree and agree.

What still kills immersion for me is the clipping model. If a vehicle can't go through a line of abandonned vehicle blocking a whole street, then it CAN'T go through (unless US Army has developped a kind of tunneling efect device for their M1 ).

The clipping issue is a really tough one for us to work around. Note that CMx1 had even worse clipping problems. The reason is the same... to avoid clipping one must have an extremely intolerant system when it comes to overlapping. In order to get that to work the pathfinding has to work much, much harder. And that means tons more CPU cycles and RAM requirements. So yeah... we could implement a system today that would prevent clipping 100% of the time, however the results would be extreme pathfinding problems.

The same could be said about infantry, while more acceptable, which makes hand to hand combat impossible to implement.

Abstracted HtH combat will definitely be modeled better sooner rather than later, but it will not be graphical. The reasons for that is that we'd have to spend MONTHS (I am not kidding) to make it work even 1/2 way decently. Look at HtH combat in FPS games and see how well they do it and then remember that their games are pretty much all about stuff like that. This sort of thing is really, really tough to do even for companies with millions to spend on artwork alone.

Steve

[M1A1TC]

Steve

Thanks for continuing support for your products, listening to customer feedback when warranted, and acting on it. Thats why I am your customer, and will continue to be one

BTW, I already talked with Matt about him coming over to my unit some day and doing a promotional speech. I can help to set it up.

[Battlefront.com]

Adam1,

No it's definitely flowing both ways Steve. lol.

Oh, for sure it should be obvious that I've had it with his juvenile behavior. As Zulu pointed out this has been building for a while and I think it's time to have Dorosh decide if he wants to be a constructive part of this Forum (see Forum Rules) or just be a Troll. I'm trying to give him the choice instead of just banning him.

Vincere,

Steve, it seems like there's history there that some of us are not aware of.

Yes and no. There is history but people who have been paying attention to Dorosh's posts since the release of CM:SF shouldn't be unaware. Basically, at some point Dorosh decided that the best way to get what he wants is to be abusive, disrespectful, and intellectually dishonest. He's become more and more abusive as the weeks have gone on and has flamed the HELL out of me not only here but in the Beta discussion area (the only thing he's "contributed" since about June or July, I might add). One reason that he's hinted is playing into this is my falling out with Dale. And yet I've not banned Dorosh even though by all rights I should. The irony is that Dorosh says that I can't take criticism, when it is plain as day that I take far more crap than probably any of you would ever want in a lifetime

Steve

[ March 31, 2008, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

... Oh, I don't have followers, just opinions like everyone else. I think I agree with JasonC and Cpl Steiner on some points, definitely with dalem on a lot of points, but as you can see, those opinions get met with hostility in some quarters which is why dalem doesn't post anymore, and you can see some of the personal attacks on Jason in past posts. ...

Have to agree with that as well.

I still check in from time to time and hope to see a new patch out to address the remaining few more of my pet complaints that seem "patchable" but outlining again for the X-teenth time why this game is not as much fun as I hoped is just a bit dull. Nice that some like Grog Dorosh and Jason still have the energy. For myself, it all reminds me a bit too much of Hans Christian Andersen's "The Emperor's New Clothes " and I am left wondering who will play the part of the innocent child.

In any case, it seems hunting Dorosh is still quite fashionable here. Wiley quarry that.

[SgtMuhammed]

There are no innocents here.

[vincere]

Steve,

when it is plain as day that I take far more crap than probably any of you would ever want in a lifetime

Fair comment.

No fears there. Just look at what we've done for CM:SF so far, then recall what we did for previous CM games along the way. We continually improve things over time because time, unfortunately, is the major thing we need.

Yes SF and CM were well supported, and appreciated. Likewise mostly your responses and explanations on these forums. In my experience a lot of other games' forums are are largely devoid of developer responses.

Oh, and glad to hear that Hand to Hand combat is going to be modelled.

[Battlefront.com]

Dirtweasele,

Have to agree with that as well.

No surprise considering all the wonderful things you've had to say about me personally at that other place. The irony of your forum name here is not lost on me

People will see what they want to see. Regardless, it is amusing to me that people who have such a huge problem with CM:SF spend so much time musing about it's failings instead of doing anything else with their time. I wish I had so much time to waste in my life!

What I really find amazing, and somewhat humorous, is how people can distort reality to fit their own perspective. The continued insistence that we don't listen and treat criticism with abuse is quite obviously false. This thread alone proves that, but there are literally hundreds of thousands of posts to prove it over the past 10 years. But the mountain of evidence makes little impression on some because, well, because it doesn't conform to the way they want to view us instead of the way we are.

For myself, it all reminds me a bit too much of Hans Christian Andersen's "The Emperor's New Clothes

Nah, we've got clothes. You just don't like the style. As I've always said... each to his own. Dunno why it's so tough for you to view it the same way.

Steve

[Childress]

Originally posted by vincere:

In my experience a lot of other games' forums are are largely devoid of developer responses.

Because most developers maintain a remote, guarded presence on their fan forums if they don't go screaming from the room and vanish forever. Steve possesses Olympian forbearance. Myself, I'd go raving bonkers.

[ChrisND]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

People will see what they want to see. Regardless, it is amusing to me that people who have such a huge problem with CM:SF spend so much time musing about it's failings instead of doing anything else with their time.

http://xkcd.com/386/

[Dirtweasle]

Speaking of irony Steve when I read you writing -

Basically, at some point Dorosh decided that the best way to get what he wants is to be abusive, disrespectful, and intellectually dishonest.

My irony meter was pegged to 11. Thought it could really go no higher, but now I know better.

Enjoy the fine clothes.

[Paul AU]

Just curious guys... is it just me, or does it seem like Dorosh is going out of his way to provoke me into banning him?

Seems to me that 'Dorosh' makes reasonable points, reasonably. He expresses his opinion better than most, and with less rancor than most.

If that's 'provocation', I wouldn't say, (guys), that's Dorosh's problem.

If I were to use the words 'cowardly', 'pathetic' and 'crap' (among others), it wouldn't be with regard to Mr. Dorosh. Guys.

[Micheal Wittman]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Just curious guys... is it just me, or does it seem like Dorosh is going out of his way to provoke me into banning him? I mean, does anybody else here think he is actually interested in having a debate, or just spouting off and then taking cheap shots at me? I know the unsolicited emails I've received this morning from people wonder how I find the patience to put up with him

Steve

Long time listener, ahah anyways as one Gentleman

put it, I believe it's flowing both ways. Yeah we

know Mr.D's style can be a bit caustic, but using the "b"an word doesn't seem appropriate, but I'm

not the king of this castle.Seems the kids are fighting in the sandbox on this one But I read this form everyday to see how

the game is and well be progressing and I appreciate peoples input into it and BFC's "openness" to the input.

"Opinions Are Like Assholes, Everybody's got One"

[ March 31, 2008, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Micheal Wittman ]

[meade95]

Originally posted by Childress:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by vincere:

In my experience a lot of other games' forums are are largely devoid of developer responses.

Because most developers maintain a remote, guarded presence on their fan forums if they don't go screaming from the room and vanish forever. Steve possesses Olympian forbearance. Myself, I'd go raving bonkers. </font>

[thewood]

Unless I missed a post somewhere, I haven't seen Dorosh post anything I would call "bannable". I have seen some of BFC's testers post more confrontational stuff than Dorosh, and I don't even think that was bannable.

[Guest]

I think the two of you guys just need to step back from one another. MD, you have some interesting opinions about the game. But fighting with Steve isn't gonna help. Try posting some suggestions back in skunkworks. Make some concrete changes. Even if you're an annoying git (I'm speaking of myself here) Steve DOES listen. You just gotta go use your powers for good.

Steve, I very much understand where you're coming from -- but I think you've gotta lay off on this back-and-forth stuff, you guys do seem to have an emotional history, so your reasoned arguments and his are falling on respectively deaf ears.

When folks get caught up in these things it just ends up with great threads like this one turning into a three-page war. I'd suggest moving the last 3/4 of this thread somewhere else and let c3k's ideas / call for opinions get back on track.