To reign in Spain

[The Great Santini]

Please correct my line of thought here.(1)Spain over 40% Axis ensures Romanian conversion for Axis.(2)If Spain goes to Axis Germans get a huge minor army with a commander. It also makes getting Gibraltor much easier. (3)How can there be anything worse for the Allies than a bloodless conversion of Spain for the Axis, therefore they must spend mpps for diplomacy to counter Axis in Spain? (4) If Allies spend mpps in Spain Axis still gets Romania. Is it really worth Germany spending time and manpower to conquer Spain?

[Retributar]

I have been investing in Spain,...if it is done early enough in the game, i have seen this effort as being beneficial...as you should be able to Recoup most or all of your investment!.

As well,...some of the Spanish Units can also be used to Garrison captured cities on the Eastern Front & yes,...It also makes getting Gibralter much easier!. By-The-Way!,...Portugal is also very easy to get after you have Spain!.

[Hubert Cater]

I'm just in the process of reviewing several items and the Great Santini brings up a few good points... any other feedback or ideas on how else Spain might be modelled? What is the most common strategy regarding Spain, both Axis and Allied?

Thanks,

Hubert

[Colin I]

There are some Allied tactics that make it important for Axis to get Spain. US/UK takes Portugal then simply builds up there safely until they take Spain. To make it worse the Pacific fleet gets triggered.

I'd suggest something like for each turn Allies hold Portugal an increase in Spanish readyness. I can see the Pacific fleet both ways - US might well call it in if they were planning on an Iberian campaign but perhaps not automatically. Generally I hate automatic triggers - its too cynical taking an action because you know a script will deliver a bonus.

But I dont think Diplo Spain by Axis is too easy - costs a lot of MPP and if you aren't careful it leaves you too light in Russia - and the Spanish units won't help there once Russian tech starts climbing.

[Colin I]

...but the (possible) delayed Spanish surrender is very good. Makes Iberian campaign more unpredictable and gives the other side a chance to reinforce.

[Hyazinth von Strachwitz]

@ Hubert:

I have a few comments regarding Spain..

Spain was still weakened by the Civil War, but it was a dictatorship.. and before loosing the possibility to reign the country, Franco would have most likely entered the war in favor of the Axis.

This gives two implications:

(1) The spanish troops (except ships) are more powerful than the Italian Forces in 1940 or 1941.. while the Italians do not even have a HQ, the spanish forces have one... and Armor. This does not make any sense in my eyes.... the spanish forces should be less powerful in comparison to the italian.

(2) In case Franco sees his country going to war anyway, he will join the Axis.. that means if the Allies invade Portugal, Spain should definitely join the Axis unless the Allies have moved them a lot in their direction via diplomacy.. i.e. if the diplo percentage is in favor the Allies, Spain would remain neutral. This would need a couple of hits, so it can be aesily countered by the Axis.

(3) If the Axis gets Spain in via Diplo, the war is almost decided in the West.. by taking Gibraltar any Allied action in the Med is severely hindered, and the amercian invasion of North Africa is almost impossible. Even if the Allies do a successful D-Day, the Axis can still strike back from Spain by transporting german troops in from Italy.. I did that once, and it was good fun...

Conclusion: Spain is a game cracker.. if the Axis have it, it is too valuable. A possible soluation can be to reduce the troop strength.

Off topic concerning the Italian forces: I like the idea of giving more units to Italy (they had a lot of weak units), but the strength should be 5 and not 10 in the beginning.

[Liam]

I disagree with all these assumptions. Noone really knows Franco's character unless you've read a book on him. He had Power over Spain, that we do know. How the rest of Europe and the World acted up until WW2 is why he was neither here or there.. He was looking after his own lot. Italy and Germany contributed Supplies and such to Spanish Fascists however, their military though okay would not have contained an armor, air and an HQ... I have no clue about cruisers in the Spanish Navy and I do not really care. I think 4 corps and a couple of Half strength armies would do just fine for Spain as her Fighter gets turned into a SuperFighter if she goes Axis and gets used Ahistorically...

As far as her stance politically, why would Germany invade a Friendly? Foolish, it should cost heavily for her to do it and there should be no MPP plunder and perhaps better partisans, it represents her stance pre-WW2.

As for the Allies attempting to invade Spain, similarly, there should be strong partisans. It should be a very very difficult feat.. I almost suggest a small scale scorthed earth policy, but let us call it a boobytrap Policy instead, knocking down Spanish resources to 1 or 2 MPP strength, making it more difficult to use as a launching pad to do something gamey!

All in all Spain is only good for getting Gibraltar and getting extra income. It's a pain to defend as it's a Second France and it's really not that many MPPs for Germany. I rarely see it contended for after it is taken by Germany. I rarely see it used once the Axis or Allies after it has fallen. Only Gibraltar is a focal point... It is like Northern Italy in Game terms, rarely noticed just there.

Really it's just too easy to take Gibraltar and Spain... There isn't much of a Socialist Backlash for it either.

[Bromley]

Couldn't you make the case that Spainish forces (and command and control) was battle tested, whereas Italy's was not (excluding colonial actions)?

Although an Axis Spain does help sew up Europe, that's all territory that now must be garrisoned against Allied invasion.

If you diploed, that's not a problem as you get Spanish units to play with. However, diplo costs you heavily reducing German combat troops before Barbarossa. That slows down the advance in the East, which is where the game is won.

If you invaded, the US gets a big increase to production, so D-Day is sooner, but then you get your ~40 MMPs/turn sooner than with diplo, get the plunder and save diplo chits. Your troops are more experienced and plentiful at the start of Barbarossa than if you had diploed, but you do miss out on the best minor army in the game. Including a vital air unit. And you need to use at least 2 units to garrison against invasion.

So I see the invade/don't invade as just about as balanced as it can be. Reducing the number of Spanish troops might affect that balance, although probably not as the Germans go through them so easily anyway. I suppose reducing them might allow Germany to pile more into Egypt pre-Barbarossa though. If there was any historical case for creating a fortification in a strategic point in Spain, that might be a way to maintain/increase their staying power whilst reducing their troop numbers and so maintain the balance.

Great Santini. (3) 40%. Applies if the Germans invade though, and the decision to do so seems pretty balanced to me. Therefore, the Allies risk wasting chits if the Germans pile in. But then if they don't invest, they risk not being able to hold back Spain until they have the US or USSR chits to guarantee it won't join. Lots of uncertainty, moves and counters with the Spanish diplo situation, which seems pretty good to me .

(4) Romania. Not necessarily. If the Allies take a risk and invest in Spain immediately, then they can get a hit before the Axis invest chits to counter. Then the Axis player is faced with having to change his rough gameplan to a Spanish invasion and also has to invest chits in Romania and Hungary (both of which the Allies might have skillfully guessed and preempted).

Hubert. Spain seems pretty balanced. If you think that the case for Axis invasion of Spain is too high then perhaps a free German diplo chit on Spain at the start and/or a fortification (only if there was a Eben Emal or El Alamain type location IRL though)? Possibly Spainish forces in the cities could be entrenched a level or two?

EDITED one of the GS reference numbers.

[ April 04, 2007, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Bromley ]

[Terif]

I can only agree with Bromley :

As it is, Spain is pretty balanced - every strategy concerning it has its pros and cons.

Getting it via Diplo is in no way a game breaker (and if UK counters also very unlikely...), only a slight advantage for Axis but offset by the pacific fleet for USA and the diplo chit costs necessary to pursuade Spain into joininig - often more expensive than the units Axis will get for it and all those mpps will be missing for Barbarossa .

Axis have for Diplo 2 choices:

- either diplo Spain to force UK to invest also 5 chits (if UK does, then it is very unlikely Spain joins Axis (which makes it the standard reaction), without counter-chits it most likely does) and to have a (very slight) change of convincing Spain into joining

- or to diplo Hungary+Romania, so they will join earlier (which they usually do) and Axis have more mpps for Barbarossa as well as the possibility to conquer Spain/Vichy when they like

Todays, veteran axis players use 3 main strategies concerning Spain:

- either they leave it neutral throughout the game, concentrating on Russia

- or they leave it only neutral till Barbarossa and then first leave Russia alone, concentrating on collecting the neutrals

- or they diplo Hungary+Romania and conquer Spain+Vichy in 1940

All three strategies have their advantages and disadvantages and so far proved to be pretty much equal concerning the goal to win the war. Which one to choose only depends on the planed/prefered strategy and if Axis want to counter a certain allied strategy .

[Blashy]

Spain is fine as is but something that would improve it is making partisans appear instead of simply causing damage. After the civil war you had plenty of people who would have formed small units if left unchecked.

And I would remove the air fleet since it was Germany's air power that was used and they went back home for the polish invasion.

Everything else seems fine by me.

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by Terif:

Todays, veteran axis players use 3 main strategies concerning Spain:

- either they leave it neutral throughout the game, concentrating on Russia

- or they leave it only neutral till Barbarossa and then first leave Russia alone, concentrating on collecting the neutrals

- or they diplo Hungary+Romania and conquer Spain+Vichy in 1940

Euh... Or number 4 : leave it alone until the Baltic joins, then quickly take Spain, take Portugal and move your troops each, just in time for Barbarossa.

Aside from that, I think that Spain is too easy captured by the Axis : with only 3 units and a HQ, you can take it in two turns without the Allies being able to do anything at all.

[Lars]

I agree with Terif and Bromely. Spain is fine the way it is.

At first, everybody diploed Spain, now, they're starting to figure out better strategies and counters on both sides.

[Edwin P.]

The areas I would improve

1. AI - the Axis AI's ability to invade and take Spain (as it seems incapable of doing when such invasions are scripted) and the Allied AI's ability to take Spain in one turn when invading from Portugal.

2. Spanish AI - I would like to see the AI deploy its units to meet expected invasion threats. If the Allies are building up in Portugal then deploy neutral units to Western Spain. If Axis units are deploying along the French border then deploy units to North Eastern Spain.

[ April 04, 2007, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Iron Ranger]

All good points, I think I would ponder 3 changes:

1) No US pacific fleet if allies DOW spain.

2) Realy partisans units like Russia gets

3) Rapid incress in Spainish activation if someone DOWs portugal

Spain is not the game breaker it was in SC1; its still one of the most powerfull minors however. Its real power relates to the Rock, and control of the Med. With it axis has near compleate control of the med (allies can stil use the loop and the 'spill over' effect of the red sea. Without it the Axis should enter Russia soon and in strenght. And this is where the game is normally won or lost.

How much of the spainish 'problem' is that no one plays a forward defence of Russia? I have yet to see or read one game where anyone goes.... Axis has lost of tech and wasting time with minor... no DOW on Russia till Augest 41..... I should Tech up my units and push for a quick counterattck as the first invasion wave will be weak. Everyone does the 'fall back to central russia' move that means German can offen enter USSR with few HQs and high quality units.

And as above, remove the spainish fighter would be a good idea.

[Jollyguy]

I agree with Terif and Bromley, Spain overall okay. Not sure about actual partisan units though, as you could make the same argument for Greece and maybe even France later on. Since the game is close to balanced you would need to give the Axis something in return if you did this, or maybe 90% to 95% of something.

And not to sound like a broken record, but as long as we're on partisans...fix the Russian partisans for 1.07! That's going to be my new mantra!

Bob

[SeaMonkey]

Need I weigh in on this one?

[Retributar]

" Repeatus Uninterruptus...Ad Infinitum...Ad Nauseum ".

Original Quote by SeaMonkey...

Need I weigh in on this one?

...For the 'Benefit' of the 'Uneducated' ,...please do continue to Enlighten-Us once again!.

[ChrisND]

Reduce the tank unit to 5 strength, take away a cruiser, take away the air force. More powerful partisans. Have units slightly dug in.

Reduce their forces, but have a UNIT script that gives them extra forces by 1944.

I dare say also add the Azores (even though that was Portugal).

[Blashy]

Desert Dave did the research and what is on the board now is actually quite accurate.

They had a significant air force, from their own planes (not Germany). As well as the navy.

In terms of units on the table, my take is that it is fine.

[SeaMonkey]

Sorry Retri, didn't mean to present an airs,.....reading my statement(off the cuff), I can see where it might have been taken in an arrogant light.......my humble apologies.

In short I agree with the vets' consensus.

"Leave it alone", yes it could be improved, but for simplicity's sake, it gets the job done.

[Bromley]

Iron Ranger's point about no US fleet transfer if the Allies DOW Spain is a good one.

I've invaded Portugal when I knew that Spain wouldn't quite swing enough to join the Axis. You then get to build up, declare war and take Spain. All that's fair enough, but it seems a bit harsh for the US to also get its naval asset transfer.

[Liam]

Originally posted by Bromley:

Iron Ranger's point about no US fleet transfer if the Allies DOW Spain is a good one.

I've invaded Portugal when I knew that Spain wouldn't quite swing enough to join the Axis. You then get to build up, declare war and take Spain. All that's fair enough, but it seems a bit harsh for the US to also get its naval asset transfer.

Perhaps the Spaniards should join the Axis when Portugal is DOWed on the spot by the Allies... Not giving time for a buildup

[TaoJah]

I had Spain join the Axis when I DOWed Portugal in a HvH game, so I guess that's already in there.

Unless it was another proof of my INCREDIBLE bad luck with odds in HvH games

[Retributar]

Liam!:

What a great idea that you have there!.

Originally Quoted by "Liam": Perhaps the Spaniards should join the Axis when Portugal is DOWed on the spot by the Allies... Not giving time for a buildup

I would only add to that, that there could be a randomizer included so that...Maybey???...Maybey Not???,...that Spain join's the Axis!. Also,...that it would not be a foregone conclusion that the American's would get a fleet build-up!.

[Liam]

Retributar,

A Random factor to removing this as an exploit could be doable. The Fleet Asset change should have also to do with US Readiness, not just location of Axis Units in Spain. That way, an early aggressive Allied player doesn't get rewarded he has to wait to get his toys!

I love those extra boats and if I was Greedy with the UK fleet, I will need them in the comming war to dominate the seas.

P.S. What the heck does Madrid and the Pacific fleet have to do with one another? :confused: