Amphibious assault – MAJOR ISSUE

[Terif]

Yep, in SC 1 amphibious units had to wait one turn on the coast before beeing able to unload - in my opinion this was in deed the much better solution .

So the invader first needed naval and air superiority like in reality and Royal Navy could be used to prevent a Sealion - in SC 2 allied ships are pretty much useless in this role. Only ground units can prevent a Sealion, but since Axis is much stronger on the ground...

Besides, invasions of neutral countries could also be interfered by the enemy navy and would be risky. In SC 2 not possible - enemy ships or AFs can´t threaten any invasion if the invader doesn´t move into the blue, but first take a look around.

[Blashy]

I hated that about SC. Why? Keep your forces away from the coast, units are safe from planes or being bombared.

See the ships arrive, you have one turn to operate/move everything in site to block some or all of the units.

Sealion, I can prevent it with the RN.

[LampCord]

OK, Blashy, I can see your point, but logically, shouldn't air units in the defending country get a shot at tranny's before they land?

The Allies flew thousands of sorties with the sole purppose of engaging and destroying German air before D-Day. Why? Because they knew that even a modest German air force would devastate an amphibious assault.

When I'm playing as the Allies, I don't feel a need to cleanse France of German air before I launch Overlord because my units will be safely on the ground and away from the coast before any air units can attack them.

Granted, once I get ashore, I have to take a city quickly or I will face major supply problems, but there should be SOME penalty paid for crossing the channel while Germany has 3 fully reinforced air groups waiting for me.

IMHO.

[Desert Dave]

TERIF, speculating:

So the invader first needed naval and air superiority like in reality and Royal Navy could be used to prevent a Sealion - in SC 2 allied ships are pretty much useless in this role. Only ground units can prevent a Sealion...

You have a bomber at start in Britain,

Spotting = 5.

You have a fighter at start,

Spotting = 4.

Would you not KNOW,

During the critical time

Of go, or NO go,

IF GErmany had amphibious forces

In and around (... they cannot all

be in port) BOTH Brest and Antwerp?

At this point,

Kriegsmarine is limited

In what it might do.

In terms of amphib protection, yes?

RN would yet have superiority,

EVEN if some are sent to assist

Med Fleet (... though, that could be

left until later, perhaps?)

Amphibs arriving from Bordeaux

Or Kiel,

Could not be spotted, UNLESS

Occasional "ship sorties"

Were undertaken.

[... or, some quick success

with research into Long Range Air?

Well, that is not vital, yet ]

OK, GErmany has some Air Fleets.

Yet,

They are NO LONGER "naval bombers"

And so,

Cannot really inflict much damage.

You need to purchase

GErman bomber for that,

And,

Given the 8-month wait on build queue,

AND other pressing needs,

Would you be able to effectively

Bother the RN?

As it forms and re-forms

A kind of "metal umbrella"

Around the vulnerable

Landing sites?

What Diff, Terif,

IF a couple amphibs DO land?

UP goes the War Entry % for USA

And USSR!

Will you risk an expensive HQ

On initial landing?

If not, say,

It arrives 2nd turn when

"Coast is clear"

So to speak,

Hasn't UK - then

Been forewarned?

Well,

I'd agree with Blash Man,

That

What we NOW have

Is better than what we used to have,

Mainly due to X-treme

Vulnerability of amphibs just sitting

Around waiting to be annihilated, OR,

Moving Corps around to BLOCK each

Landing spot. :eek:

Anyway,

Good to discuss and wrangle out

ALL possible strategems, eh? :cool:

[ April 18, 2006, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[Desert Dave]

When I'm playing as the Allies, I don't feel a need to cleanse France of German air before I launch Overlord because my units will be safely on the ground and away from the coast before any air units can attack them.

LC,

By this time of the game,

I would think that Axis

Would have L/R air tech advances?

Therefore,

Extended strike range.

And a few naval bombers,

Precisely placed,

And protected by

Fairly experienced escorts?

And could first spot,

Then attack!

Amphibs that are waiting to head

On over to French coast?

I don't know,

Maybe not,

Maybe only some lurking,

And advanced U-boots, well,

Just wondering.

[Terif]

Sorry, but England will not be able to spot enemy amphibious transports before they move and land to the coast since they simply embark in a port out of sighting range - and not in Antwerp .

Amphibs have a range of 10 and even can move first a bit closer if necessary - one turn at sea doesn´t cost that much readiness. So they will embark at Bordeaux or much more likely in Kiel where no enemy can reach them.

To send Royal Navy every turn to Bordeaux and Kiel to look for transports is also illusionary, even if it would work. For this the axis navy is simply too strong and will wipe them out one by one. You can do that perhaps 2-3 turns, but then it is good bye Royal Navy .

Spotting amphibs in port is useless anyway since ships can´t attack them there, they only target the port instead of the transport. So sorry, no possibility for Royal Navy to interfere any invasion - same for any other navy in SC 2 .

And to block the landing sites with ships, sorry...just can say: lol . Too much posssibilities to land and to leave the ships there as sitting ducks is also no good idea. At least not around England since if Axis wants to invade, they will surely not only send amphibs, but also some AFs - and a combat AF vs ship will still win the AF despite reduced attack values .

[Terif]

Blashy:

What is bad about keeping your forces inland instead of placing them at the beaches so enemy planes can kill them for free ?

To buy all necessary defenders instantly when needed is another story, here I can agree with you. But this issue has already been addressed in SC 2 with the production delay of several months.

So Allies can´t wait if they see enemy transports at their coast, but have to built forces for defence in advance anyway. And blocking all landing spots is not possible anyway due to lack of units in SC 2.

P.S.: keeping all land units away from the coast so they couldnt be bombarded wasn´t possible in SC 1 either - at least not against any able opponent .

[Blashy]

Well Terif, as I said I can stop an Axis invasion of England with the RN.

Oh I won't completly prevent ALL landings.

1- I want some landings, nothing better for some diplomatic hits towards USA/USSR than Axis troops in UK.

2- Those troops will have a hard time and probably have to retreat or contend themselves on holding London only.

There is a way, you are being lazy because of all people you would be the one who should be able to prevent a successfull Sealion .

[Blashy]

In SC it was very easy to have corps in the middle of France, see the tranports, move them to the coast the next turn. Transports are stuck and can't land.

It was ridiculous.

[Desert Dave]

Sorry, but England will not be able to spot enemy amphibious transports before they move and land to the coast since they simply embark in a port out of sighting range - and not in Antwerp

Far be it for me to debate

The undisputed #1 SC Game Player, but,

Since I have kleine free time,

What the heck!

How many?

I mean, how many amphibs can sail

From Bordeaux and Kiel?

Enough?

To make the CRITICAL difference?

To send Royal Navy every turn to Bordeaux and Kiel to look for transports is also illusionary, even if it would work. For this the axis navy is simply too strong and will wipe them out one by one. You can do that perhaps 2-3 turns, but then it is good bye Royal Navy .

You wouldn't have them roaming around

Like long lost souls, or,

That ragged Albatross that followed

The Ghost Ship? Everywhere it went!

Would you?

A few sturdy, stationary ships,

Protected by the fighter,

Might just do it?

I don't know, maybe in that soon!

Coming attraction:

Terif VS rambo jr,

We would discover some other

Not-yet-wrangled... intangibles?

Spotting amphibs in port is useless anyway since ships can´t attack them there...

Well,

They actually COULD, and there would be

A small chance of hitting the target

In addition to the Port,

But,

Why do that?

Just hit the amphibs which HAVE TO BE

In the sea tiles surrounding the port.

Unless you are sending only the one

At a time?

And to block the landing sites with ships, sorry...just can say: lol

You wouldn't block ALL possible landing sites,

You'd likely merely be in

A very carefully selected position

Which would give you BEST possible access

To ENOUGH of the amphibs

To create certain harm & havoc

And disturbance of them

Well laid plans.

... and a combat AF vs ship will still win the AF despite reduced attack values

Granted: attack ratio is 2 : 2

And since ships cost more than AF's,

Even a tie would go to the attacking

Nations Air Fleet.

However,

IF your whole Nation is at risk,

Well,

You gladly - take a few hits,

And make those up later when USA

Is sending all that Lend Lease MPP's.

A 2:2 attack on RN is likely NOT

Going to impair their ability to deflect

Some amphibs... though

Would it be enough?

I guess... we'll see come Saturday?

Was it?

Then the Ramblin' Man can contest

Your... DEFINITE Sea Lion???

You are going to SURELY attempt

This, terif??

Hmmmm... should be interesting to see,

Can't wait!

[ April 18, 2006, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[Sombra]

And here we go again.

Why not limit simply the range of amphib transports? The trnasports have to be at sea and could be attacked. Airforce could spot them.

Still they would be able to maneuver around a bit to get to a good landing spot.

[Terif]

Originally posted by Blashy:

Well Terif, as I said I can stop an Axis invasion of England with the RN.

Oh I won't completly prevent ALL landings.

1- I want some landings, nothing better for some diplomatic hits towards USA/USSR than Axis troops in UK.

2- Those troops will have a hard time and probably have to retreat or contend themselves on holding London only.

There is a way, you are being lazy because of all people you would be the one who should be able to prevent a successfull Sealion .

Depends on the opponent

But if the axis player knows what he does, then Royal Navy will not be able to prevent Sealion in SC 2. If Axis wants England, then it can conquer it without too much problems. It will certainly need some turns to fight the way from London to Manchester, but since Axis can land reinforcements without any real danger, they will surely overwhelm the defenders with their superior ground forces.

The only thing that prevents a Sealion, is in deed the readiness boost for USA and Russia. So logically Axis will wait till they are (nearly) in and THEN invade . With the current landing system, England has no chances to defend their island (or what should be an island) successfully.

After the diplomatic threat is gone, Allies can only do one thing against it: building lots of ground units for defence. And they will have to start building them from the beginning if players start to do the Sealion tactic as standard . This can prevent a Sealion - but by doing so they will not have enough ressources to harm Axis elsewhere and the mid game will become a quiet phase.

Historically the geographical position as island and their mighty fleet protected England against invasions. But with the current landing system, England is no real island any more since enemies can land their units without ships beeing able to interfere - and Royal Navy becomes obsolete as a protection force. And that´s the real bad thing.

P.S.: if you want I can show you how to conduct a Sealion in SC 2 - Royal Navy will have no chance to interfere with the current landing system. As said before: only the diplomatic consequences prevent Sealion, not the fact that England is an isle and Royal Navy should be able (but is not in SC 2...) to protect it against naval invasions .

[Terif]

Yep, limiting the range of amphibs could do the trick (I don´t think the system will be changed ).

In the Sealion case Axis will surely not only build ONE amphib, but they will do it either in different ports (one amphib from each of them) or simply build them in the baltic where no enemy ship can reach them anyway.

Royal NavY can try to block certain landing spots, but Germany also has a fleet and some AFs ready. So it is no problem to kill 2-3 allied ships if necessary and clear the landing spots. So they will still be able to land enough units to conquer a city .

[ April 18, 2006, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[LampCord]

@Terif -

If we're talking about fixing it just within things that can be changed in the editor, what do you think about also reducing readiness of amph troops on landing.

It seems that would more reflect reality.

[SeaMonkey]

How about a hard limit on the amount of amphibs any major nation can have on the water at one time?

This could be tied to an infrastructure, industrial tech level, so the need for additional landing vessels could be addressed by nations with a need for that type of invasion technique.

In the real war, the Allies were always strapped for landing craft. The absence of suitable craft kept the Germans from seriously considering Sealion.

Another possible approach, through the editor, is make the cost of Amphibs 100 MPPs. Let's see how many are used at that point. This cost could also be effected by the infrastructure/industrial tech level.

This would stimulate a degree of research and and an accompanying time delay to acquire a viable amphibious capability.

[Desert Dave]

Terif, here, and all the rest too:

Yep, limiting the range of amphibs could do the trick (I don´t think the system will be changed

Truth is, none of us Testers knows

Very much more than you do

About what might be coming next,

And ONLY Hubert will be answering

These sorts of questions, IE,

ANY possible changes to game features,

From here on out.

Which is how it should be.

The only thing that prevents a Sealion, is in deed the readiness boost for USA and Russia. So logically Axis will wait till they are (nearly) in and THEN invade

In mid to late 1941?

You are going to extract ENOUGH units

From the Eastern Front?

What has Russia been doing all this while?

Perhaps?

Building a human WAVE

That would at first trickle,

Then FLOOD through all yer

Thinned out pickets?

After the diplomatic threat is gone, Allies can only do one thing against it: building lots of ground units for defence. And they will have to start building them from the beginning if players start to do the Sealion tactic as standard . This can prevent a Sealion - but by doing so they will not have enough ressources to harm Axis elsewhere and the mid game will become a quiet phase.

UK is building MANY units right from

The get-go, I would imagine?

IF no See Lowe,

THEN these are diligently escorted

To a theatre near you,

Or North AFrika maybe.

You've got yer ASW installed by now,

What trouble a Wolf-Pack or 2?

... and Royal Navy becomes obsolete as a protection force. And that´s the real bad thing.

Not obsolete,IMHO, but instead,

Carefully deployed, and protected,

And BTW?

WHEN does Bismark arrive?

Surely not QUITE in time?

Can it even break out

Of the (... potential) blockade?

What of weather, you only

Have a limited time-frame

In which to carry out amphib invasions

With best possible chances of success.

Royal NavY can try to block certain landing spots, but Germany also has a fleet and some AFs ready. So it is no problem to kill 2-3 allied ships if necessary and clear the landing spots. So they will still be able to land enough units to conquer a city

And small GErman Navy will escape

ALL this mayhem - unscathed?

Some of that Navy will be needed

To knock out the Russian CA's?

Ah, OK,

The FUN is in the quest,

The grand adventure, and so,

Proof will be in GrossMutter's

Pudding, ya? :cool:

[ April 18, 2006, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[jon_j_rambo]

Give me a break. Changing this is a bias against the United States play. A turn represents a full week. It's this simple, you put troops in a boat with a bunch of guns, land & headcrack. In WW-2 the Japanese wouldn't protect their beaches, so we landed, they prefered to battle elsewhere (general comment).

If you don't like the landings, they design a "real-time" game rather than turn based.

[LampCord]

Usually they didn't defend the beaches because they would have been bombed into the stone age by 16 guns from the Iowa and her ilk. They had to hide in entrenchments, jungle and caves in order to survive untill the American troops were too close to use heavy guns.

That's one of several reasons why naval superiority is usually considered a prerequisite for amphibious invasions.

And I don't think statements like, "If you don't like X, create your own game" are really fair. We all want to make this game as good as possible. People shouldn't get shot down for making well meaning constructive comments.

Their appear to be quite a few posters who feel that amphibious assaults need some tweaking. That's all.

[PeterX]

If you don't like the landings, they design a "real-time" game rather than turn based.

Or design a grogish monster game like Gary Grisby's Pac War. IIRC, in that one, attacking amphibs were subject to interception during a 'reaction phase'. More realistic than currently, I guess, but damned difficult to reproduce with the editor.

Still, it does seeems like out-of-the-blue invasions by sea might become a headache in SC2. How did other IGO-UGO wargames handle this tricky situation?

[K Jonsson]

I haven't got the full game yet so I can't comment on exactly how powerful invasions are in the game and if they need some changes, but I'll still throw in something I've been thinking about.

As some of you already have said, it would have been close to suicide to attempt an invasion if you didn't have complete(?) air and naval superiority. This is not the case in the game though. Ideally defending air and naval units should be able to react to an invasion force, but since the game is turn based that is impossible without either changing the game fundamentally.

My "solution" would be to have all nearby defending air and naval units influence the amount of landing casaulties the invader suffers. Lets say one extra damage for each CA within half their striking range of the landing, two extra damage for each BB and three extra for each air. Maybe friendly air and naval units should decrease the extra damage by the same amount, maybe a smaller amount. Only for unused units?

Another soultion might be to let defending air intercept the landing just as a regular air intercept. Maybe allow naval units to be set to intercept mode?

Any thoughts on this? Am I just a ranting maniac or is it something that might work?

/Kristian

[Honch]

Just change the action points to 3 or 4. It forces amphibs to be at sea longer.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Originally posted by PeterX:

How did other IGO-UGO wargames handle this tricky situation?

Would a WEGO (a la CM) game system work on this scale? Delicious thought...

[PeterX]

Would a WEGO (a la CM) game system work on this scale? Delicious thought...

Lol, probably a little better but in that game units are still following their so-called TacAI routine. It would be too easy sending out disposable ships like transports as chaff in order to misdirect the home fleet.

[jon_j_rambo]

Well, if you don't like "just in time landings", I don't like "just in time defenses". You guys ever been on a boat? If you land & nobody there, it isn't that difficult to do!!!

[SixthArmy]

Neither solution works. ok.

ON scale I think the newer game works better tho. Some landings did end up being quite a nasty surprise at operation level so a strategic " WHAT !?! THEY LANDED WHERE !? " I think is ok sometimes. Much better than opping a bunch of corps in to block the beach. "Awe geez everyone's at the beach today its too crowded to invade" That got silly.

btw - I have no solution Somebody really smart will have to think something up.