You can take England BUT...

[SMG42]

Originally posted by Blashy:

How amphibious functions is fine, it has never been an issue, any "exploit" is not an exploit but a simple strategy that your opponent can adapt too.

Play the game for a week, then play a pbem vs. myself with you as Axis, and PLEASE go for the Sealion .

The amphi mechanism is definitively not fine: unrealistic, whats more the AI is not able to counter in anyway Sealion as the Brits. This is problematic, as 90%+ of the players will always play solo.

Don't use the fact that in pbem this is less feasible. People don't want to hears that the AI is bad but that the problem doesn't exists in multiplayer. They want to hear that (given some patches) the amphi mechanism will be more realistic (how dare you say that 6 german armies landing in 1940 is historical?) and that the AI will be improved to deal with Sealion.

[ April 09, 2006, 01:42 AM: Message edited by: SMG42 ]

[Hubert Cater]

SMG42,

This is simply one of those areas where changes to the game mechanism do in fact work very nicely in a multiplayer game but unfortunately require a bit more ingenuity on my part in order to have the AI handle it better.

Either way, the good news is that these are areas that I have already identified and will continue to work on in order to improve the overall AI game play.

[pzgndr]

They want to hear that (given some patches) the amphi mechanism will be more realistic (how dare you say that 6 german armies landing in 1940 is historical?) and that the AI will be improved to deal with Sealion.

Additional AI and event scripts can and most likely will improve the computer opponent challenge. There are also other things that can be done with the editor. For instance, country specific values for amphibious transports could have reduced range for all but USA and UK. That would impose some historical limitations and more or less restrict Germans to launching Sealion from the nearest ports, which are vulnerable to bombing. We could also consider force pool limits for transports to reflect more historical shipping capacities and availability of transports. But, we also do not want to make Sealion and other hypothetical invasions impossible.

[Hubert Cater]

Bill raises some good points that a lot *faults* can simply lie in the the scenario/campaign designs themselves and do not necessarily require AI adjustments at all.

For example, wrt the D-Day mini-campaign some of you have noticed that the AI will occasionally unload HQ units in more vulnerable positions. After taking a quick look it appears to be, in this case, mostly the fault of the Battleships and Cruisers which during their shore bombardment phase block many of the potential landing positions thus forcing the eventual landing of the HQs to the periphery of the invasion.

Considering the scale and the fact that artillery already has a range of 2 tiles, a simple tweak giving Battleships and Cruisers a strike range of 2 tiles (for this mini-campaign) seems to have mostly resolved the issue... i.e. HQs now land in the desired *safer* pockets at a much higher percentage than what was happening previously.

[Edwin P.]

Cool, sometimes the simplest solutions are the best.

[Hubert Cater]

Thanks, and while there is not always that simple solution, where the AI will in fact need some tweaking, sometimes you have to take a few steps back and look at the big picture before you start implementing too many *needed* adjustments.

From experience, more often than not a tweak here and there can cause an unanticipated fallout in another area where you get into that analogy of the guy cutting at the legs of a table just to even out the height... but before you know it the table is flat on the floor where perhaps that slight wobble wasn't so bad after all

[Blashy]

Originally posted by SMG42:

And how many people would have beleived D-Day was possible before it really happen?

The game is about rewriting history, if not, then Germany winning should never be possible, what would be the point of playing...

With that said, the sytem works, the AI just needs some tweaking to better defend UK and use its navy. If I can keep a player from doing a Sealion, then the amphibious system is not broken. It is the AI that needs to be thought to better use the resources it has in place.

[Exel]

The amphib tech is the best suggestion to the issue so far methinks. It would allow the current amphib system itself to be left unchanged while restricting unrealistic mass invasions in the early war.

If the number of available amphib transports and their cost would depend directly on the level of tech you have, Germany could no longer launch a major invasion in 1940. Not without considerable investments anyways. Historically the biggest obstacle for Sea Lion after RAF and RN was the lack of suitable technology. The Allies in turn spend enormous resources in research and development to allow Normandy to happen.

Another simpler solution, or a place-holder until the above can be done, would be to simply up the cost of amphib transports. It would make invasions a huge gambit MPP wise (realistic) but would also mean that you'd have to prepare for it over a longer period of time as you couldn't buy too many transports on one turn (again realistic).

[Blashy]

Exel, you are beating a DEAD horse.

It is not unrealistic as it NEVER occured historically to be determined realistic or not.

It is a HUGE gambit as is. You keep hammering away that it is broken and all you've played is a short demo.

The AI needs to be changed to do a proper prevention of Sealion, that is ALL. The tools are ALREADY there.

Any half decent player will prevent you from a Sealion if he wishes to do so.

[Kuniworth]

Excel;

Animal abuse is forbidden by law. Why do you keep battering that poor horse? The horse never did anything to you right?

So why keep hitting it? You hit the horse so much that it probably received some kind of damage to it's hooves and can't compete at the race track anymore. Now who will then bring in all the prize money when the horse can't? See what I'm getting at?

Dont beat animals. Not even the people from IRS.

[Liam]

Well, Sea Lion is definitely possible. UK cannot buy enough corps to fill that little Island up and German Transports can wreak havoc but Originally when do you think Hitler was going to invade Britian ? 1940 In Fall kill her off then mince up USSR

That was the plan and Battle of Britian prevented that. Otherwise without those Pilots there would be no England and likely the USSR could've fallen more easily. The Reason, so many Germans were stationed on the Atlantic Wall from France to Norway. Those could have be freed up to cover the lines at say Stalingrad? Even though Occuppying Britian would've required a substantial force and in no way means the Death of Britian. Can't the USA then counter attack the UK? That works, The US needs a fleet. I'd likely think about a Patch where the Pacific is primarily ignored pre-Pearl Harbor and 5 US Battleships, 3 Carriers, 2 Subs, several other air, HQs, corps are freed up for Europe. Sort of Like Siberian Transfer but for the USA.

Let's add this potential factor in, the way transports work, add in another fighter in Scotland for The UK... With this Fighter, we'll call it the Reinforcement Squadron. Put 3 Experience Points next to her. Allow her only to be used after France has fallen, she will be the cream of the crop of Hardened English Resolve, Fighter Pilots from Every Nation of the World fighting for "United Cause" though Disband her after the Battle of Britian is over. With about 8 Corps and 2 Fighters it is probably going to really really hurt Germany to destroy Britian. That solves that mess? If required, add in 2 or 3 Extra Home Corps that also disband after the Battle is through... the British Countryside is very fortified, including a British Country Fortification is not out of History or the Realm of possibility. There are Guys I knew in England and I Saw them personally while living there, that study the hundreds if not thousands of Bunkers and PillBoxes littering the English Countryside

See solution to every problem, just bring up the editor and wammo

as for Early Russian Invasion of Turkey, easy... Squash Russia with Tigers we're not even sure the effect those puppies will have early given great #s on an opent front like Russia... You'll be at Moscow by the time he's in Egypt...He'll do what then? He's only aiding England. Russia falls, end of Days. Just as Hubert mentioned. Maybe this doesn't work out, but there is a possiblity of a HouseRule, fixes that quite easy.

[Kuniworth]

or pretty parrots either.

[Blashy]

What you CAN see in the demo is that if you take UK, they move to Egypt, so no plunder, you have a very "slight" mpp boost from UK Island, remember they make $$$ from convoys, no more convoys.

At LEAST 3 troops to man it.

So now you have UK Island, USA and USSR in the war, with UK still going in Egypt.

I'm not giving away anything. I just hope I get to play each one of you who think Sealion is the game winner

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Well, at the other extreme there should be a winning

Sea Lion strategy for the Germans, otherwise we lose

what should be a viable (marginally or not) alternate

strategy...

[Hubert Cater]

If the number of available amphib transports and their cost would depend directly on the level of tech you have, Germany could no longer launch a major invasion in 1940. Not without considerable investments anyways. Historically the biggest obstacle for Sea Lion after RAF and RN was the lack of suitable technology. The Allies in turn spend enormous resources in research and development to allow Normandy to happen.

Excel,

This is actually not a bad idea and one that came up in the original design phase of the game. Desert Dave for example was a big propenent of expanded Amphibious Tech and unfortunately this was one of the areas that had to get cut, and there were many, just to get the game done.

The good thing is that what we have now is not too far off (believe it or not but the already existing extra cost for Amphibious Transports can have a detremental effect on long term investments such as Barbarossa and Research/Diplomacy), and as mentioned can be handled pretty well in multiplayer and by the current event scripts, but perhaps a few AI tweaks coupled with an expanded Amphibious Tech and/or Cost system (simple enough to just have it cost that much more for earlier invasions but not too much) and we might just have a winner

[Karhu]

Originally posted by John DiFool the 2nd:

Well, at the other extreme there should be a winning

Sea Lion strategy for the Germans, otherwise we lose

what should be a viable (marginally or not) alternate

strategy...

John DiFool the 2nd raises an interesting point. In SC1, Sealion was viable if only to knock the UK and its MPPs out of the game. With the UK government moving to Egypt, and the US entering the war early after a SC2 sealion, it's really out of the question.

Meanwhile, Axis invasions of Sweden and Spain look like non-starters too, as again they would bring the US in earlier.

So what are the poor Germans to do? I daresay Blashy will demonstrate in our PBEM game. :eek:

[Marky]

pciky picky pickys

da phibs are fine

a properly executed phib op is a DEADLY thing and SHOULD be

[hellraiser]

You seem to miss the whole point...

If Axis gets Britain, the springboard for invading western europe is gone. The two allies (uk don't matter no more in Egypt only), are too far away to properly coordinate anything. As IRL, had England fallen. USA would have probably never entered the war against Germany).

Germany can concentrate all efforts in wiping out Russia and the more time passes, the more obvious the difference in MPPs, techs etc should lean towards Axis.

Supporting an invasion (thus opening a viable second front) in absence of English isle, is an utopia. Only the african theatre is not enough for the USA to mean something.

Or at least it shouldn't be - it is quite logical I think.

So my opinion is: invading and succesfully capturing Britain should be possible only if the allied player has done enough mistakes to allow it to happen. And one more thing - they way amphib transports work now -> how can be RN of any real use if it cannot intercept the transports? Axis load troops in boats, move them the next turn in striking distance (concealed to enemy's spotting) and then land uncontested by the overwhelming RN power. Very innacurate.

If I move the ships to protect the coast tiles, they would get wiped out by Luftflottes in northern France.

[ April 10, 2006, 02:41 AM: Message edited by: hellraiser ]

[Blashy]

1- Sealion IS easily prevented by the RN.

2- The RN CAN prevent a successfull landing.

3- The RN CAN intercept amphibious transports..

NOTE: I did not know that D-Day had to be done the way it was done in WW2 to be succesffull .

[Retributar]

Also,...the 'English Channel' can have 'Treacherous Storms', i don't know how frequently although!.

Perhap's there could be something in the game to refelect this reality,...so that one would have to try to synchronize their invasion with the English Channel Storm situation in mind!.

[Sombra]

Wouldn´t it be simple and sensible to reduce greatly the range of the amphibious transports?

For example only give them a range of 5 squares?

The transport would still have a small ability to land on undefended coast tiles but they could´t appear out of the FOG sudenly and threaten the whole of England. RN would have a much better chance to protect England as well.

Historically I think it makes sense that you can´t switch your invasion in a moment from northern Germany to Brest.

[hellraiser]

You heard the man - RN can do all that stuff ... from what I saw in the demo, it is impossible to prevent any landing anywhere due to how the amphib system work and due to the range the transports have. Sorry but it is not obvious at all, at least for me.

If there are some more hidden features in the full game, I don't know. But, frankly, instead of buying blindly a 'potential' good game, I would rather preffer to be able to make my own assessment about the game mechanics by playing the demo, even only for a few turns. I understand that many of the issue I raised recently may not be of interest to many ppl who are interested in SC2 and maybe play only the AI ... I am interested strictly on h2h play and all I want is to be able to know if the game offers a competitive environment for h2h games, before I buy it.

Just my 2 cents, I hope nobody will be offended by my post.

[ April 10, 2006, 04:42 AM: Message edited by: hellraiser ]

[Sombra]

Hellraiser wewill see how it works out but from the demo I would suggest already:

- Limit the range of amphib transports

- Give defendes some more advantages

- Clean up the diplomatic screen a bid. (I think a list would be much more useful rgiht now to represent the war readiness status of the various nations

[hellraiser]

Use the editor, Luke !

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Blashy:

1- Sealion IS easily prevented by the RN.

2- The RN CAN prevent a successfull landing.

3- The RN CAN intercept amphibious transports..

NOTE: I did not know that D-Day had to be done the way it was done in WW2 to be succesffull .

All of these ARE possible in the demo itself. Of course the AI is not doing it but they are possible and with proper scripting the AI will be able to do so as well.