More politics in SC2

[DalmatiaPartisan]

Dear xxx people who make SC2!

My opinnion is that politics should take more important role in SC2 game-at least like in good oldie Clash of steel.

One must admitt that politics took great role during II World war(like in all wars). It would be great to put a little bit of politics spice in SC2, but I dont have any idea how to make it. Only similar(COS) thing I ve seen was pressure that axis or allied could put on neutral country, also Balkan pact...

Any suggestions??

[Blashy]

I think they'll implement being able to influence partisan activity and a few other minor issues.

But putting too much of political stuff will take away from what sets this game apart from others.

Its simplicity to learn and play.

Oh and the new editor seems to be another sweet "setting apart" addition.

[DalmatiaPartisan]

hiya Blashy

wasnt actually thinking about "too much of political stuff".

But in SC1 only thing that could have some affect on coutries and relationships was declaring a war.

I think that wasnt enough, and also not realistic.

Maybe some small potion of politics wouldnt harm war nature of this game

[Bill101]

As it currently stands, after all the majors are at war there are no penalties for either side to declare war on all the remaining neutrals, as and when they are in a position to do so.

I've always felt a little uncomfortable with this, but like most others I've taken advantage of it and gone ahead with invasions of Switzerland, Spain, Turkey even.

How about the aggressiveness of the Axis in declaring war on numerous nations is taken as a sign of how they treat the conquered peoples.

Therefore, the more invasions, the nastier their internal policing is presumed to be, the end result being that as the Axis invade more countries, so the % chance of partisans appearing increases.

Perhaps this isn't a brilliant idea, but I'd like there to be some penalty to out and out aggression.

Another alternative is that neutrals outside Europe could lend a hand to stop the Axis. If the Axis attack Spain, Switzerland or Turkey then there could be a % chance of a Brazilian Corps arriving in the South Atlantic, while it could also have the effect of making South Africa agree to its troops being used outside Africa (i.e. a % chance of a SA Corps in the South Atlantic too).

[Night]

Politics is a must for SC2. It is the only real major thing SC1 is missing.

Spending MPPs to put pressure on nations and manuvering your military to do the same would be a lot of fun

[Wodin]

I would also like to see more politics included. BUT not so much as to complicate the game just enough to enhance it.

[KDG]

"Enhanced diplomatic model that will not only be driven by game events and player pressuring but will allow opposing sides to engage in active counter diplomacy"

Thats from the battlefront news board on SC2.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Night:

Politics is a must for SC2. It is the only real major thing SC1 is missing.

:eek: eh only thing? You've been sleeping in a coffin at the attic for the last three years?

[pzgndr]

Lots of new political stuff planned for SC2. Country alignments can now be edited! So this will permit ahistorical scenarios with USSR being Axis and Italy being Allied. Also useful for WWI scenarios and other custom games.

Random political triggers and war readiness factors will work about the same, but now event scripting will allow you to tweak these factors or create new ones. Think about what was done for SC1 and go from there. Like status of Sweden affects Finland entry, Turkey, etc.

Diplomacy will allow you to buy chits that will have some chance per turn of affecting the alignment of neutrals. If both sides have a chit invested in a country, they would both cancel out. That's the basic idea, but nothing's been set in stone yet. We're also toying with how a new intelligence research tech could affect diplomacy, by improving your chances or reducing your opponent's or something like that.

What we will end up seeing in SC2 are more political events across the board, possibilities of some things going either way like Yugoslavia maybe having an Allied coup or perhaps an Axis coup instead, and the option to engage in diplomacy to sway things your way.

Remember that we'll also have a lot more research choices, a bigger map to engage in more operations, new units available to build, and now diplomacy chits available for purchase. You'll only have so many MPPs and so much time to put your grand plans into action. Decisions, decisions.

[Edwin P.]

Great, Great, Great

Do you know if we will able to write user selectable political triggers?

Example - At Start of Game Axis player can select to subsitute Spain or Turkey for Italian entry.

Example - Turkey's ambassador has informed the Prime Minister that a gift of 20MPPs would negate domestic opinion to join the Axis. If UK does not give 20MPP to Turkey then Turkey will be more inclined to join the Axis. Historically Turkey played off the Axis and the Allies against each other securing financial and military aid from both nations while remaining neutral until the Germans were perceived to be losing.

Example: 25% IF Axis attacks Sweden then Spain asks the UK for 50MPP in Military Supplies. If UK gives 50 MPP Neutral Spain gains an extra Corps or two.

Example - Random political triggers such as - If Germany DOW Vichy France then Turkey has a 10% to annex Vichy Syria ( a former territory of the Ottoman Empire). If Axis conquers Egypt then Turkey is 20% likely to Annex Iraq. If Axis attacks Turkey then Iran is 25% likely to join Allies.

Example: - 20% If Germans take Rostov then Turkey offers Russia MPP in exchange for the City of XXXX and the surrounding oil fields, promised to Turkey in an earlier Treaty. If Russia accepts Russia gains 400MPP but Turkey Annexes Tiles XX,XX,XX,XX and XX. (Turkish politicians offers the Russians a deal they can't refuse).

[ April 20, 2004, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[John DiFool the 2nd]

The Allies could be punished for indiscriminate

DoWs in two ways: MPPs from trade with neutral

countries could dry up, and countries with a

neutral/Axis tilt could lean harder towards the

Axis, perhaps even activating and joining them.

JD

[vveedd]

I hope you will not have only final political results like “Minor joined to major power”. You should have some between phases like:

1. “Minor country decided to enter in economics agreement with major power” – major power getting MPP from minor every turn but minor is still neutral, or

2. “Minor country decided to enter in defensive agreement with major power” – major power can setup minor units in minor country but this units can’t go out and other Axis units can’t go in until enemy DoW. And so on…

[DalmatiaPartisan]

I think there could be 2 ways:

1. Random events in which player could make some decisions (simple example 1: Duce requires German help in suplies: Axis player can choose to give it or not-it costs 20 MPP-depending of choice Italian readiness will increase or decrease; example 2-preparing to attack Yugoslavia will bring axis units on Yu-border, axis player can pick to pay 10 MPP for intelligence so Yugoslav armies will be unprepared and placed randomly on the map. In case axis player doesnt pay allied player can position units inside border but also in limited areas(historicly).

2. Other political acts like pressure on coutries, defence and economy agreements, intelligence reports and stealing of technology

3. Each country should have alignment so for example Norway would be +50(max 100 like in COS) for allied. In case axis player attacks friendly country (Sweden for example), some of his allies(historicly) alignment would change a bit. So if AI makes good relation between Romania and Yugoslavia if axis attack Yugoslavia Romania would be difficult to join axis soon.

I think these are not too good solutions-these are only rough suggestions which someone with better creativity and interest could make work well. But I think its at least worth of thinking about puting into game.

[Edwin P.]

I like the Galciv model where the player is presented with an event and the player has 3 choices in how to respond to event. The player's choice affects the result or it may lead to another event.

For example:

Minister, the Turkish Ambassador informs us that their government has recovered information from a crashed German Transport plane which we might find interesting. Do we:

1. Offer the Turkish Government 50MPP in Foreign Aid in exchange for the contents of this information. (80% Turkey's goverment graciously accepts the offer and Russia spots location of all Axis Troops in Russia for 1 Turn, 20% Russia provides money but the information is worthless.)

2. Inform the Turkish government that providing us with this information would be a sign of friendship and trust. (25% that Russia spots location of all Axis troops in Russia for 1 turn, 75% that overture is rejected.)

3. Demand that the Turkish Government turn over the information to us now or face the consequences. (60% that Russia spots all Axis troops in Russia for 1 turn, 30% Turkey rejects the threat , 10% Turkey joins the Axis)

Example:

Sir, the Commander of the German Army reports that the Polish civilians are suffering from a shorage of food supplies. Do we:

1) Tell the Army to distribute more rations to civilians in Poland. (Cost 20MPP)

3) Tell the Army to ignore the problem. We have more important matters to deal with. (75% nothing happens, 25% polish partisan unit created in 1 to 10 turns OR US War Readiness increases 5% as Reports of Starving Civilians run in the New York Times.)

[ April 21, 2004, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Queipo de Llano]

Back during the run-up to the original SC the developers offered up what I felt to be a lame rationale for the lack of a player's ability to influence neutrals with MPPS (something along the lines that this would encourage players to cheat. Uh, okay...)

If it truly will be possible to expend resources for political purposes in SC2, I feel that would be a valuable addition to the gameplay as well as one with abundant historical justification - in WWII and just about everywhere else one looks.

PLUS, when I use the editor to make a "Napoleonic Wars" mod it really would help to be able to model the actions of "Albion Perfide" in bankrolling successive coalitions against the French!

[Bill101]

Quiepo, I'd hope that you could give us all a Spanish Civil War mod when SC2 comes out.

I'd love to play that, though I take it from your name that you'd be prefer to be Axis?

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Originally posted by Queipo de Llano:

Back during the run-up to the original SC the developers offered up what I felt to be a lame rationale for the lack of a player's ability to influence neutrals with MPPS (something along the lines that this would encourage players to cheat. Uh, okay...)

If it truly will be possible to expend resources for political purposes in SC2, I feel that would be a valuable addition to the gameplay as well as one with abundant historical justification - in WWII and just about everywhere else one looks.

I think people were wary of the COS system where

you can just keep throwing political points at

a country until it either capitulates or ignores

you (and stays neutral). Hopefully SC2 won't

have something banal like that when it comes to

influencing minors...

John DiFool

[Shaka of Carthage]

Well, we have enough grey matter that contributes to these topics. So why not spend some time to outline a possible system and propose it?

We can use SC as the baseline, then add to it the new information we learn that SC2 will have.

Espcially with the Diplomacy model, over the past year or so, I've seen very few alternatives proposed.

[Edwin P.]

Excellent point Shaka of Carthage.

From posts in other areas I believe that HC is leaning towards using Diplomatic Chits which may allow players to increase the chance of a diplomatic outcome occuring which may also be influenced by your Intelligence Tech level.

Diplomatic chits would cost MPPs so players would have to make a decision on whether they are worth it.

Enhanced diplomatic model that will not only be driven by game events and player pressuring but will allow opposing sides to engage in active counter diplomacy

I assume that since Diplomacy takes time that a player will spend a chit one turn, his opponent will have a chance to respond during their turn and that the result will be known the following turn - ie a 3 turn process.

I think that there are several realistic opportunities for diplomacy, the key I think is that not all possibilities should be available in every game. Perhaps allow a set of 15 diplomatic options in each game picked from a universe of 45 options. Thus no two games are the same and players can't adopt a single perfect diplomatic strategy to achieve victory.

1) Allies encourage the Nordic Countries to sign a defensive Alliance.

2) Axis encourages the Baltic States to Join the Axis

Axis can use a Diplomatic Chit to activate this option. The chance of it succeeding is the total of the following Modifiers:

Diplomatic Chit +20%, Russian unit on Baltic nations border -10% per unit, Russia has annexed Eastern Poland, -10%, Russian Diplomatic Chit -25%

3) Axis encourage Sweden to join the Axis.

Axis can use a Diplomatic Chit to activate this option. The chance of it succeeding is the total of the following modifiers:

Diplomatic Chit = +25%, UK attacked Ireland = +25%, Allies Attacked Spain = +25%, Allies attacked Low Countries +25%, Allied Diplomatic Chit = -25%, Axis Attacked Spain -25%, Axis Attacked Switzerland -25%, Axis Attacked Russia -50%.

[Shaka of Carthage]

From the way SC works and past discussions about this... I would assume all of the neutral nations have a "alliance" %, not unlike the Clash of Steel model.

The Diplomacy events that you speak of, will probably move the value up or down, depending on the event. Since thats the basic method used currently for the readiness percentage, we should be familar with how that works.

So the Diplomatic Chits you purchase, will probably move the value in your favor.

Then, once a certain number is reached (which we will probably never know what that value is), that nation will then join one of the major alliances.

So... lets say you're Germany and you're doing your thing against Benelux and France. Once Vichy France is formed... then I would assume, that any invasion of Spain, Vichy France or Sweden, would then reduce the diplomacy number that would make Rumania, Hungary and Bulgaria join the Axis. Germany, to counter those feelings of betrayel, would then have the option of purchasing a Diplomacy Chit, that it could "spend" in Rumania, to try to get them to join the Axis.

Assuming the above model is somewhat accurate, it appears that the only thing we can add to this, would be the Diplomatic events and when they occured.

Hence... I propose that we put together a list of say, twenty-one (21) Diplomatic events that favor the Axis, and twenty-one (21) that favor the Allies.

Within the twenty-one (21), I would suggest this sort of breakdown... Seven (7) that have a major effect for that Alliance, seven (7) that have a minor effect and seven (7) that have a so-so, or even no effect.

At this point, since we don't know what those "diplomatic" numbers are, assigning values isn't that important. Right now the type of effect (major or minor) is whats important.

And if you haven't already figured it out, you need the same effects for each side for playability purposes. With twenty-one (21) events and a third of them being more or less neutral, there should be a very large replayability factor, since there are a huge number of combinations, not to mention different sequences.

[Hubert Cater]

Shaka

Assuming the above model is somewhat accurate, it appears that the only thing we can add to this, would be the Diplomatic events and when they occured.

That's about as close an assumption as possible

[Edwin P.]

Shaka, excellent insight into the diplomatic model.

Allied Events

A1.Minor - Convince the Italians to delay joining the Axis until the Germans can demonstrate victory over France.

Effect - Reduces Italian War Readiness

A2.Major - Convince the government of Norway to join the Allies.

Effect - Increase Allied Alliance %

A3.Major - Convince Vichy France to join the Allies.

A4.Minor - Convince Vichy Syria to join the Allies.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Edwin P

I was thinking somewhat along more specific definitions. I'll give some examples. And this would give all those people who want to do some Boolean logic a chance to try it.

Major Axis effect

IF Germany invades Sweden THEN

Rumania "Axis alliance" % reduced

Bulgaria "Axis alliance" % reduced

Finland "Axis alliance" % reduced

Hungary "Axis alliance" % reduced

Major Allied effect

IF Allies invade Benelux THEN

Yugoslavia "Axis alliance" % increased

Greece "Allied alliance" % decreased

US "Allied alliance" % decreased

I used the two examples above, because they are kinda obvious in the effects and most of us have discussed them to death. So I would expect others to make suggestions like having the chance of Turkey becoming Allied as part of Germany invading Sweden.

But where the real flexibility comes in, is in the "what if" category. Thats where I think we should concentrate our efforts. An example...

Major Allied effect

IF event occurs THEN

Finland joins the Allies.

Russian diplomats have convinced Finland, that in return for certain land and other concessions, to join the Allied war effort against Germany.

This assumes we can provide a description of the event, so we are notified of what is happening.

We could even use it to describe events in the Pacific theater, and show the effect they could have in Europe... something like US makes concessions with Japan, ending the war in the Pacific... and making the US permanently neutral.

[DalmatiaPartisan]

great thinking Shaka-I must agree-this is the point which could make game more interesting-rando historical(not necessary) events.

Consider also this example:

-due to the axis troups concentration on russian border-allied player can pick few options:

1. pay certain amount of MPP and move border troups within 1-2 hexes distance after which border troups morale and readiness will be reduced

2. do nothing

3. pay some MPP to get diplomacy and inteliggence war alert so border troups readiness and entrechment increase

due to the axis ocupation of Yugoslavia allied player can hoose to:

1.support partisans-costs MPP, increases % of partisans

2.do nothing

3.pick to pay 5 MPP per turn so partisans will always have supply 1 when out of city and better readiness soft attack and defence.

Hmhm or maybe such things will complicate game to much. Anyway I think most of players enjoy in random unexpected events which is SC1only tech improvement or Yugo coup or minors joining axis-I think this kind of improvement would be great for game

[Edwin P.]

Proposed Diplomacy Affecting Actions and Events

The following are diplomatic chit events which the opposing player may prevent by spending his own diplomatic chit to cancel the action.

In addition, players can negate or amplify the effects of certain events by using a diplomatic chit.

---------------------------------------

IF UK Spends Diplo Chit on Turkey THEN Turkey Annexes Neutral Iraq AND Turkish Allied Alliance % Increases AND Greek Axis Alliance % Increases

Turkish troops have entered Iraq to restore order after a military coup against its lawful government with the approval of the British government.

---------------------------------------

Britain encourages Turkey to Annex Syria to Stop German Expansion

IF France Surrendered AND UK Spends Diplo Chit on Turkey THEN Turkey Annexes Vichy Syria AND Turkish Allied Alliance % Increases AND Greek Axis Alliance % Increases.

The Army of Turkey has assumed control of Beruit and Damascus with the consent of the British Government

------------------------------

UK withdraws from the Middle East

IF Turkey Annexed Iraq AND Turkey Annexed Vichy Syrian AND UK Controls Suez Canal AND UK Spends Diplo Chit on Turkey THEN Turkey Annexes Suez Canal AND Greek Axis Alliance % Increases

British Forces have withdrawn from Egypt and turned over Control of the Suez Canal to the Government of Turkey.

-------------------------------------

Turkey Allows British Troops to Transit Straits

IF UK Spends Diplomatic Chit on Turkey AND Turkish Axis Alliance % < 50% THEN UK Naval Units Can Move Through Turkish Ports and Straits.

The Government of Turkey has granted transit rights to British Naval Forces through the Bospherous Straints

-----------------------------------

Allies encourage Turkey to Reclaim Bulgaria

IF Allies Spend Diplomatic Chit on Turkey AND Turkey has Annexed Syria AND Turkey has Annexed Iraq AND Germany DOW Hungary AND Germany Attacked Spain THEN Turkey Annexes Neutral Bulgaria AND Neutral Romania Joins the Axis AND Neutral Yugoslavia Joins the Axis AND Neutral Greece Joins the Axis.

Turkish Troops have entered the Bulgarian capital of Sofia to protect the Bulgarian people from Axis aggression. Neighboring countries have joined the Axis Alliance seeking protection from imperialist Turkey.

---------------------------------------

Axis incite Turkish fears of an expansionist Russia

IF Axis spends Diplomatic Chit AND Romania Surrendered to Russia AND Axis Controls France AND Turkey Annexed Bulgaria AND Turkey Annexed Iraq AND Turkey Annexed Vichy Syria THEN Turkey Joins Axis.

The Government of Turkey declares war on the Soviet Union to stop communist aggression.

----------------------------------------------

IF Russia DOW Romania AND France Axis Controlled THEN Turkish Axis Alliance % Increases

-----------------------------------------------

Axis Diplomats Spy on Local Military Forces

IF Axis Spends Diplomatic Chit they can Spot all Allied Forces in Egypt OR Iraq OR OR Turkey OR Iran. (As they had embassies in these countries)

------------------------------------------

Allied Diplomots Spy on Local Military Forces

IF Allies Spend Diplomatic Chit they can Spot all Axis forces in Spain OR Egypt OR Iraq OR Turkey OR Finland OR Iran. (As they had embassies in these countries)

-------------------------------------------

Axis Diplomats counter American anger on sinking of US Ship

IF AXIS Spend Diplomatic Chit on USA AND Event Axis Subs Sink US Ocean Liner Occured THEN US War Readiness Decreases.

The German Ambassador has expressed his most profound apologiies for the sinking of the American Ocean Liner and has vowed that those responsible will be punished for his crime.

----------------------------------------------

UK diplomats stir up US Anger at German sinking of US ocean liner

IF UK Spends Diplomatic Chit on USA AND Event Axis Subs Sink US Ocean Liner Occured THEN US War Readiness Increases

The British Ambassador called on the American Navy to join the British Navy in hunting down and sinking the German forces responsbile for sinking the American civilian ocean liner.

---------------------------------------------

Russia secures Manchurian Border from Japanese Attack

IF USSR Spends Diplomatic Chit AND Event Japanese take Midway Occured Then Siberian Transfer Option = ON.

The Governments of Japan and Russia have signed a Treaty of Friendship and Non-Aggression.

-----------------------------------------------

Germany portrays Japan as a Greater Threat to the USA

IF Germany spends a diplomatic chit AND US Neutral AND Siberian Transfer Not Triggered THEN US War Readiness Reduced by 20% AND SIBERIAN TRANSFER ACTIVATED IN 6 turns.

US Government announces that it is prepared for war with Japan.

----------------------------------------------

EVENTS

Iraqi Revolt

IF Iraq Revolts THEN Iraq joins Axis.

The Military of Iraq has overthrown the King and declared its support for the Axis Alliance.

Axis Sink US Passenger Ship

IF Axis Subs sink US Ocean Liner THEN US Readiness War Increases by 10%.

Axis submarines sunk the American Ocean Liiner at 10:00PM 400 miles east of New York. One thousand passengers lost their lives.

Japanese Victorious at Battle of Midway

IF Japanese take Midway THEN Siberian Transfer Option = OFF.

Japanese Air and Naval Forces defeated the forces of the US naval in the Battle For Midway Island in the Pacific Ocean.

[ April 23, 2004, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]