More politics in SC2

[Edwin P.]

Random Events

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JAPAN Attacks Russia instead of Pearl Harbor

IF Japan Attacks Siberia THEN Siberian Transfer = OFF AND US Gains 2000MPP.

Japanese Air and Naval Forces have invaded Siberian Russia.

(Note: This event can only occur if the US is Neutral)

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IF Germany Expends A Diplomatic Chit THEN Japan will not Attack Russia.

IF USSR Expends A Diplomatic chit then Japan will not Attack Russia.

The idea is that if this event - JAPAN Attacks RUSSIA - is selected that both sides, Axis and Allies, will have the opportunity to block it with a diplomatic chit.

So a pre-attack turn announcement might be- Intelligence agents report that Japan is massing troops on the Siberian Border.

Each side can act to block this game changing event if they wish to do so, without knowing whether the other side has used a diplomacy chit to do so. The large bonus to the US MPP reflects the fact that Japan did not attack Pearl Harbor and that the US war effort is totally focused on Europe. It also compensates for the Siberian Transfer option being turned off, as Russian troops are busy fighting the Japanese.

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Axis Initiated Diplomatic Event

Germany Encourages Japan to Attack Russia

IF Germany Spends A Diplomatic Chit AND US is Neutral AND Siberian Transfer = ON THEN Siberian Transfer = OFF and US Gains 2500MPP.

"Japanese Army and Air forces invaded Russian Siberia from Korea and China"

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Allied Initiated Diplomatic Events

IF US Spends a Diplomatic Chit and the UK Spends a Diplomatic Chit Then Siberian Transfer is Activated wihin 12 turns.

"The US and the United Kingdom reports are sending additional forces to the Pacific to combat the Japanese Aggression"

Note - This Frees Russian Troops in Siberia to mve West.

[ April 23, 2004, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[KDG]

Mention of the Siberian transfer reminds me of how in SC1, the Axis controlled when it would occur.

Will this change for SC2, either through political chits, randomness, variation on axis location, etc?

[Shaka of Carthage]

Edwin P

You got it. Though I suspect, that the Diplomatic Events won't allow us to have so many conditional conditions and effects.

Now you have to make sure that there are enough events to balance each side (ie for every bad event for the Axis, there is an equivalent bad event for the Allies).

Then whatever method that controls the events, will determine per game, if one side or another gets an Diplomatic advantage. No different than the Tech research.

[Edwin P.]

Shaka of Carthage

Thanks for the feedback.

I suspect you are correct about so many conditional conditions and effects. Any comments HC?

I would really like to see the occurance of events like the sinking of the US Ocean Liner dependent upon German Wolf packs attacking US Merchant Ships - say if you attack Merchant shipping there is a chance that you get the Sink US Ocean Liner Random Event.

I will try to balance them out - coming up with 15 or so Diplomatic Events for each side that are balanced for effect and for each stage of the game.

[ April 23, 2004, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Edwin P.]

Axis Diplomatic Event

IF Axis Spends A Diplomatic Chit on Finland THEN Post Surrender Finish Partisans Activated.

This event allows the Axis to activate partisan units for a cost - an investment in arms and equipment for the Finish partisans.

Allied Diplomatic Event

IF Allies Spend A Diplomatic Chit on Norway Then Post Surrender Norwegian Partisans Activated.

Axis Diplomatic Event

IF Axis Control Cairo AND Axis Spends A Diplomatic Chit THEN Turkey Annexes Egypt AND Turkish Axis Alliance % Increases AND Iranian Allied Alliance % Increases and Italian Axis Alliance % Decreases.

The Government of Germany has recognized Turkish soverignty over the lands of Egyt.

Allied Event

IF UK Spends a Diplomatic Chit on Neutral Portugal AND Spain is Neutral THEN Portgual Becomes UK Minor Ally.

The President of Portugal welcomes an alliance with the United Kingdom.

Note: this allows the UK to station troops in Portugal, ready to support Spain in the event of a German invasion.

Axis Event

IF AXIS spends diplomatic Chit on Neutral Baltic States THEN Baltic States Join Axis And Russian War Readiness Increases by 20%.

The Baltic States have joined the Nazi Alliance. The Government of Soviet Russia has responded by closing its borders with these states.

Allied Event

IF Allies Spend Diplomatic chit AND Germany Attacked Denmark AND Germany Attacked Belgium AND Ireland is Neutral THEN Norway joins Allies.

The Government of Norway has decided to join with the British government in its fight against German aggression.

Note: This event a reason for the Allies to delay attacking Ireland.

Axis Event

IF Axis uses Diplomatic Chit AND Germany Controls Vichy Algeria THEN Vichy Algeria Annexed by Spain and Spanish Axis Alliance % Increases and Italian Axis Alliance % Decreases.

The Spanish government graciously accepts the territory of Algeria given to it by the Government of Germany.

As suggested by JerseyJohn the Axis may want to curry the favor of Spain by granting them territory in North Africa; however, such action would anger the Italians.

Allied Event

IF Allies use Diplomatic Chit AND Spain is Neutral THEN Spain Gains 2 Corps and Spanish Axis Alliance % Decreases.

London Times reports that England has shipped military supplies to Spain to strengthen the Spanish Army against German Aggression

Axis Event

IF Axis use Diplomatic Chit AND Spain is Neutral AND Axis Controls Vichy France THEN Spain Annexes Vichy France AND Spanish Axis Alliance % Increases and Italian Axis Alliance % Decreases.

Germany has turned over administration of Sourthern France to Spain. The Italians have protested against this action.

Allied Event

IF Allies use Diplomatic Chit AND Spain has Annexed Southern France OR SPAIN has Annexed Algeria THEN Italian Axis Alliance % Decreases.

Spanish and Italian papers report thatt Germany favors Spain over Italy in the new Europe.

Note - Italy may return to a Neutral State if Germany tries to hard to court Spain or Turkey.

Allied Event

IF Allies Spend Diplomatic Chit AND TURKEY Annexed Egypt THEN Italian Axis Alliance % Decreases

Italian papers report that Germany and Turkey have signed a secret agreement to give the lands of Arabia and North Africa to Turkey.

Axis Event

IF Axis Spends Diplomatic Chit AND ALlies Attacked Ireland AND Allies Attack Low Countries THEN Iceland Joins Axis.

The Government of Iceland formerly requests German protection from the allied alliance that has illegally attacked the neutral nations of Europe.

[ April 26, 2004, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[vveedd]

Lots of good ideas but we all must be honest and say that we pick up this ideas from Advanced Third Reich game. In this game diplomacy concept is the best I ever saw.

Just want to add to these great ideas that Hubert and other can partially resolve one players wish more and that is manual set up for minor countries units AND Russia AND USA. As I said in my post above you can have event like <minor entered in defensive agreement with major power>. Player immediately after that event can set up minor units but with certain limitations – these minor units can’t set up and go out of his borders and other major/minor allied units can’t go in.

Also in same manner you can give same options for Russia and USA:

- After certain Allied initiated event Russia can deploy his units but Russia is still neutral,

- After certain Allied initiated event after event above Russia can attack Finland border hexes… sorry, tiles and Bessarabia tiles in Romania.

- After certain Allied initiated event USA can increased aid convoys for UK

- After certain Allied initiated event after event above USA can send couple numbers of air fleets in UK.

And so on. I can do this all day.

P.S. Especially I like suggested event somewhere above:

- After certain event readiness and entrenchment of Russian units are decreased in first turn of Barbarossa.

[Shaka of Carthage]

I could be wrong, but I don't think that players are going be able to perform actions based on Diplomatic Events. So talk about activating partisans or unit setups I believe is going in the wrong direction.

Diplomatic Event will simply allow us to add a positive or negative modifer to a nations "alliance" rating.

The only unknown, is wheter or not, the "event" will be a single action, or if we have the ability to access a "string" of events.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

And that gets us to the "variant" concept. I'm

not sure I like the "random variants" that 3R/A3R

had (as they occurred in a vacuum), but a number

of them would occur outside the political order

of things, and hence would not be doable within

the context of SC2's political system. Tech

variants are already subsumed within the tech

system, natch. What other kinds would you have?

Extra units popping up (a la Siberian Transfer)?

Sudden changes to US/Soviet entry?

Perhaps on second thought we don't need variants,

if everything else is done well...

John DiFool

[DalmatiaPartisan]

Seems after all this ideas and messages we wont have more politics in SC2 Blitzkrieg...which is bad for the game and politics lovin players(as I am). Anyway my opinnion was that mild and balanced improvement in politics could make game better...

:mad:

[Desert Dave]

Seems after all this ideas and messages we wont have more politics in SC2 Blitzkrieg...

Patience.

All will be revealed in time.

Sometimes, questions on this board are not immediately answered for the good and sufficient reason that Hubert hasn't completely indicated how certain game parameters will be implemented.

Fully implemented.

Partial answers are sometimes known.

But, why provide... PARTIAL answers?

That would only muck-up the works.

Think about this, for a moment.

How many other game-boards do you know about where so very many answers are so quickly provided?

Best to do that... WHEN they are known.

Sometimes... and keep in mind that we have a ways to go here, before full testing is under way... keep in mind that it is often better to have a gradual and more exacting process,

Than it is to throw out all sorts of incomplete information, prematurely.

[DalmatiaPartisan]

1 small idea;if there is a possibility to put more politics into the game great improvement for TCP/IP gaming would be that while 1 player makes his war movement other player makes politics moves and tech research...

Waiting sometimes makes people bored and nervous

[Hubert Cater]

Interesting idea although not likely as the turn based nature requires most if not all actions to happen sequentially otherwise some problems/complications could ensue. Either way, the timer option should help with most wait times

[jon_j_rambo]

Hmmm...timer option is coming?

[DalmatiaPartisan]

hey Hubert and rest-dont want to bore U but didnt quite follow recent news for SC2-any news considering this topic?

Croatian SC team is waiting for more politics-less war(we re sick of war in this part of World-now we enjoy in some atractive creative politics)...

[Edwin P.]

Any news?

[DalmatiaPartisan]

Hey Edwin!

I meant any news considering politics and random events-did they give any new info of taking our ideas to the game

[Edwin P.]

I understood. I should have said "Any News HC?" .

So far HC et al has not made any extensive comments on the diplomacy system or random events. I too am looking forward to hearing what will be included.

[Hubert Cater]

Not just yet

[Edwin P.]

I am especially interested in finding out if SC2 will include a game changing semi-random event such as Japan Attacks Russia (instead of Pearl Harbor) = No Siberian Transfer for Russia, but a stronger USA.

Random Event: Japan attacks Russia instead of Pearl Harbor (10% - 1 in 10 games, while USA is Neutral.)

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Start of Turn X

Popup for both sides: News Flash: Japan Massing Troops on Siberian Border. Diplomatic Option button appears.

German Option: Diplomatic Chit to prevent Japanese attack on Russia.

Russian Option: Diplomatic Chit to prevent Japanese attack on Russia.

American OptionL: Diplomatic Chit to prevent Japanese attack on Russia.

Note: All sides do not know if the other has expended a diplomatic chit to prevent a Japanese attack on Russia.

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Start of Turn X+1 =

If Germany nor Russia nor USA expended a diplomatic chit on Japan then Japan attacks Russia. No Siberian Transfer, USA gains Bonus (Units and/or MPP).

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If Germany and/or Russia and/or USA expend a diplomatic chit on Japan then Japan does not attack Russia.

Popup: NEWS FLASH: Russia signs trade agreement with Japan. (if Russia expended a diplomatic chit on Japan during the prior turn). German Foreign Minister visits Japan (if Germany expended a diplomatic chit on Japan during the prior turn). USA embargoes sale of oil to Japan (if USA expended a diplomatic chit on Japan during the prior turn).

The News Flash (with 1 to 3 comments) adds a touch of chrome to this simple event.

Note that all players see the same inital news flash and must select a diplomatic option without knowing if their opponents have elected to expend a diplomatic chit to influence the outcome of this event.

Why this event? It totally changes the game. USA Stronger, Russia Weaker. And since it rarely occurs (at most 1 in 10 games) it is not something that players will plan for.

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I would also like to see:

Turkey Allows British Naval Forces to Transit the Straits

IF UK Spends Diplomatic Chit on Turkey AND Turkish Axis Alliance % < 20% THEN 50% UK and USA naval units can move through Turkish Ports and the Bospherous straits to/from the Black Sea.

NEWS FLASH: The Government of Turkey has granted transit rights for British and American, not Russian !, naval forces to move through the Bospherous Straits.

Turkey Allows Axis Forces to Transit Straits

IF Axis Spends Diplomatic Chit on Turkey AND Turkish Axis Alliance % > 80% THEN 50% German and Italian naval units can move through Turkish Ports and the Bospherous straits to/from the Black Sea.

NEWS FLASH: The Government of Turkey has granted transit rights for Axis Naval forces to move through the Bospherous Straits.

Why only a 50% chance? Diplomacy is never a sure thing?

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And of course this Diplomatic Event:

English diplomatic contacts learn location of Axis Forces in North Africa

1 Diplomatic Chit = UK spots 10% to 50% of Axis units in Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iran and Iraq for 1 Turn. (Cost 75 MPP)

Note: The UK had substantial commercial and tribal contacts in North Africa and the Middle East.

Axis Diplomatic contacts learn location of Allied Forces in North Africa

1 Diplomatic Chit = Axis spot 10% to 50% of Allied units in Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Syria and Iraq for 1 Turn. (Cost 75 MPP)

Note: There was a substantial number of pro-German Anti-British and Anti-French sympathizers among the Arab populations of North Africa and the Middle East.

[ October 27, 2004, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Edwin P.]

And of course Random Events where players can influence the outcome:

Random Event: 1% per turn, if German subs interdict Allied Merchant Shipping and USA is Neutral.

News Flash: German sub sinks US Merchant Ship. Diplomatic Options Button Appears for German Player.

Diplomatic Options for German Player:

Option 1: German Foreign Minister conveys applogizes to USA government and offers compensation to survivors (Cost 10MPP).

Option 2: German Government assumes no responsiblity for ships entering a war zone. (50% US War readiness increases 1% to 4%)

[DalmatiaPartisan]

That would be great-but also there is possibility of ruining a concept of WW2 making things go quite oposite from the history-I guess thats not quite what we want?

I think diplomatic chits (balanced with the history facts with existing research chits) would be perfect solution...But maybe the cost of diplomatic chits should be 50% of research chits so more diplomatic actions would be possible.

Why not considering this as an option in the game menu-if someone doesnt care much for politics-random events and diplomatic chits could be shutdown...

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin,

That Japan attacking Russia is an interesting variant.

Historically the main reason Hitler DoW'd on the U. S. A. was in the hope Japan would do likewise against the U. S. S. R.. By then those two countries had a nonaggression pact that Japan tried to honor. Many Japanese officials felt the Axis should have been Japan-Russia-Germany.

Assuming Germany doesn't DoW on the U. S. A., it seems doubtful that the United States would enter the war till long after it's historical date, if at all. The Germans had already sunk two United States destroyers on convoy duty, the second, The Ruben James, went down with all hands, and there was no American outcry to enter the war in Europe, instead it was for FDR to cease putting the lives of U. S. sailors at risk in anti-U-Boat action.

A likely game reflection of this Russia first scenario would be that the U. S. A. has a longer period of neutrality and enters when Moscow is captured as it can then be assumed that large concessions would be made to Japan in order to get them out of the war against them. Freed from their Soviet fighting, the Japanese turn south and east against the U. S. and U. K. and at that point a substantially stronger United States enters the war in, say, early 1943.

Naturally, there are many variants on this idea.

[Curry]

Politics, oh please dont speak about politics to me now. I live in Florida which is the swing state of all swing states, for some reason there is an even number of demorcrates and repubilicans and all we watch here 24/7 is political ads. On top of it all I live in the I-4 coridor which is the swing district of the swing state. Oh please no politics in sc. :cool:

[Edwin P.]

Jersey John, most interesting background information. I never even thought of a German - Russia - Japanese Axis.

Another take on this variant, is that Germany does not DOW USA and the USA concentrates the full force of its Military on defeating the Japanese. This frees up the forces that Russia kept in Siberia and the Siberian Transfer occurs sooner than normal, while the US enters the European war much later than normal, if at all.

On a related matter (RE: SC2), I wonder if it would be possible to require the surrender of France or the UK as a prequisite to US entry into the war in Europe. Why? If France and the UK can stop the Axis War Machine dead in its tracks I doubt if the USA would have entered the war in Europe.