Russian captured Panthers?

[Francesco]

Hi all!

I've noticed a screenshot which shows a pair of Panthers under the red flag...

Now, I'm a modeller and I've read a bit of 2nd World War vehicles. Especially Russians. But I've never read of captured Panthers and I've never seen any photograph of them.

Could you give me some reference? Why did Battlefront included such units?

I think that even if a couple of german Panthers ran in russian hands, it would be disgrceful to place them in the entire CMBB game... if so even the Maus should have been modeled... or not?

And, as far as I know, Germans weren't really fond of leaving their tanks to enemies... they preferred to destroy them themselves...

What do you think/know about this subject?

Best regards!

Francesco

[Mace]

There's reference to Soviet Panthers in Steel Masters special no 8 - Panzer sous L'etiole Rouge.

Soviet army/unit, number and year include:

3rd Guard Tank Army / ? - 1 PzKpfw V (1943)

46th Army / 991 Artil Regiment - 3 PzKpfw V (1945)

46th Army / 366 Artil Regiment - 2 PzKpfw V (1945)

67th Army / 511 Tank Regiment - 4 PzKpfw V (1944)

The magazine also includes an interesting color scheme: Panthers retaining the German camo on the hull, but with the turrets repainted Soviet green - very nice.

Mace

[Cos]

Originally posted by Francesco:

I think that even if a couple of german Panthers ran in russian hands, it would be disgrceful to place them in the entire CMBB game... if so even the Maus should have been modeled... or not?

And, as far as I know, Germans weren't really fond of leaving their tanks to enemies... they preferred to destroy them themselves...

Well it's not proven the Maus saw any combat and there were only 2 (feel free to correct) built. Also would require additional coding to put it in the game. Panther already coded, regardless of which side it's on.

Germans couldn't destroy ever tank that got left behind, no one could.

[rune]

Here are 14 that were captured.

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/bulpanth.htm

Other units also used them in numbers like the above. Captured tanks were used by both sides.

Rune

[Sgt. Schultz]

I always wondered if the Russians were able to get a supply of fuel pump gaskets to go with those captured Panthers, or if they fixed the problem.

I would have thought with their sub-par availability numbers, captured Panthers would have been better used as pillboxes.

Any grogs out there know if the Russians got their Panthers to be more reliable than the German-owned ones? I was thinking the main reason they got captured in the 1st place would be by over-running repair depots, as a a tank on the battlefield would probably have had a few extra holes in it, not to mention the unenviable task of sponging out the spall-shredded former occupants.

[Schatzi]

Remembering what my grandad said, by March `45, most heavy equipment was just dumped along the roadside, when the fuel ran out. They would often clog up the roads. So I´m sure that by then, lots of tanks were captured without battle action.

[Tiger]

I have a book, "Polish Military Vehicles on the Eastern Front 1943-1945, Camouflage and Markings", and they have a pic of a Panther Ausf G, captured by the 1st Tadeusz Kosciuszko Infantry Division, on a victory parade May 1945.

Lots of slogans ("Hit the Enemy with His Own Weapon") and the white Polish Eagle emblem on it too.

-john

[ September 09, 2002, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: Tiger ]

[gunnergoz]

Regarding the Soviet use of captured Panthers as pill boxes...

It strikes me that by the time the Soviets captured Panthers in any quantity, they were already on the offensive and much less in need of defensive works.

I would think that one use for the Panthers would be as lead tanks to spoof the German AT defense. Another possibility is that the Russians simply enjoyed running them as propaganda and a visible reminder to the troops as to who was winning the war.

I do recall reading that the early postwar French army fielded an entire battalion of Panthers from captured specimens.

As to the Maus...here we go again. This one was thoroughly thrashed in the past. It was too rare to bother modeling.

Does anybody know if the JS-3 made the cut, though?

[--am--]

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Nice pics --am--, but the last one is not a captured Panther. It is a German redressed Panther for the Ardennes Offensive. They tried to make several tanks look loke American TDs. That's one of the better looking ones as they have put up a false side on the turret to approximate the shape of the M10's.

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by Sgt. Schultz:

I was thinking the main reason they got captured in the 1st place would be by over-running repair depots

And sometimes they captured the maintanence personnel, too.

[audace]

Ciao Francesco,

hai ricevuto la mia ultima email?

A risentirci! :cool:

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Sgt. Schultz:

I always wondered if the Russians were able to get a supply of fuel pump gaskets to go with those captured Panthers, or if they fixed the problem.

I would have thought with their sub-par availability numbers, captured Panthers would have been better used as pillboxes.

Any grogs out there know if the Russians got their Panthers to be more reliable than the German-owned ones? I was thinking the main reason they got captured in the 1st place would be by over-running repair depots, as a a tank on the battlefield would probably have had a few extra holes in it, not to mention the unenviable task of sponging out the spall-shredded former occupants.

By March 44 the only real weak point was the final drive, which was a weak point in the PIV as well due to a German wide shortages of adequate metals. Again I point to the fact that readiness rates that are pretty much identical for PIVs and Panthers. As opposed to the T34-85 that had a weak final drive as well as a overloaded transmission.

The Russians just impressed the German mechanics they captured into service.

[John Kettler]

A little digging at www.skalman.nu , where Thorleif Olsson of Red Steel fame shifted his site, will produce lots of pictures of captured equipment in service, including some really super rare stuff, like the Wanze (Borgward B IV demo vehicle equipped with multiple Panzerschreck mount with pivoting armored shield). I distinctly recall a photo of an entire company of captured Panthers.

Regards,

John Kettler

Here's the link to Axis equipment in Soviet service

http://www.skalman.nu/soviet/ww2-gallery-foreign-vehicles.htm

The equivalent for the Axis is listed under Gallery: Foreign vehicles in Axis service in the German section.

[ September 09, 2002, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[Jack Carr]

I noticed the sample screen shot as well. After having read most of the posts to this thread, I would have to agree with the initial post. Why put captured Panthers in the game? Are they selectable from the Soviet players arsenal? Were captured Panthers so widespread that they had to be added as an element in the game? If not, then why not have captured Tigers and MKIV's and MKIII's and STUGS and every German tank ever used as playable by the Soviet player? For that matter why not make various Soviet tanks available to the German player? Maybe they are?Perhaps this is a screenshot from one specific scenario? I really don't know enough about the game yet. I just pre-ordered it last night.

In any case, God Bless Big Time Software! I think these games are the best of all time! Not in line with the thread but I have to say it because it's just that good.

[Kwazydog]

Jack, the most common captured vehicles are available on both sides

Dan

[Andreas]

I think there is a whole huge data problem with captured equipment. Very little data seems to be extant, and if you go by picture archives, you are really seeing skewed selections, because these vehicles would presumably have been pictured more often. I think Kip has some info somewhere on the utility of captured vehicles (very little, due to various problems, just a waste of resources).

I think it is good they are in - it will please ladder players, because they can finally balance their games completely. E.g. each side gets two Panthers and an SMG company, and an 81mm mortar FOO on a loaded chess-board map - I mean, how much more exciting can CM get? Rock on!

If you don't like it, just don't use them - in a QB, just switch rarity on, and nobody will buy them. There are some fairly off-the-wall vehicles in on the German side that probably were as rare as captured Soviet Panthers.

[--am--]

BA

KV-2

SU-85

T-26

T-34

T-35

[--am--]

T-35

T-60

T-70

T-34 in SS

PAK-40 in Soviet Army

[John Kettler]

Andreas,

While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, I for one am glad that captured equipment is in and is available, for its use is both historically valid and provable. The Germans used everything they could get their hands on, on all fronts of the war, and they would've gone under sooner without it.

Leaving aside such matters as the captured guns mounted on the Pz Jaeger Ib and the early Marders, not to mention all those 76.2mm Rutch Booms, if we follow your preferences we find ourselves in the rather embarrassing position of being unable to depict the entire armored inventory of certain German divisions during the winter of 1941?, where a Panzer division's complete tank inventory

consisted of three(3) tanks--all formerly Soviet. Should we deprive Das Reich of captured and modded T-34s it used in the Kursk fight? They were a significant part of Das Reich's armored force. Be sure to take away all the captured armor assigned to route and rear area security, too. Will be happy to take the partisans after you do this!

The Soviet player doesn't really need Su-76is. Just ignore that production line set up to make several hundred of them and the huge losses that led to such a seemimgly odd decision in the first place. Nor should the troops be allowed to use that King Tiger captured in Sandomiercz, Poland after the Germans abandoned it. Never mind that it simply ran out of gas. And you can certainly take away the Panzer IIIs and StuGs if you like in your games, but I want to be able to include them in mine, especially if I get the crazy notion to build a scenario in which they actually appeared historically. As Jimmy Carter's then SecNav W. Graham Claytor said: "Everyone's entitled to his own opinion; everyone's not entitled to his own facts."

Play CMBB as you like, Andreas, but don't cramp my style and my choices because you don't like capabilities and options which historically existed. Sure, some may abuse the opportunities afforded, but that's what negotiations and not playing that person again are for.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Andreas]

John, rest assured that you can play CMBB as you like. Even should I become world dictator tomorrow, I will make a special exemption for you. There - do you feel better now?

Now, I just quote myself, if I may:

If you don't like it, just don't use them - in a QB, just switch rarity on, and nobody will buy them.

Now what do you think the opposite of this statement is? Right - 'If you like them, use them, and in a QB, just switch rarity OFF'.

John, can you please show me where I made any uttering as to what people should or should not be allowed to do in their games? I don't think you can, and maybe you should just edit out your silly little post.

But well done, you have shown to all that you know a lot about captured vehicles. Have a cookie.

[ September 10, 2002, 05:33 AM: Message edited by: Andreas ]

[James Crowley]

In fairness, and certainly not meaning to speak for him, I think Andreas' comment;

Originally posted by Andreas:

I think it is good they are in - it will please ladder players, because they can finally balance their games completely. E.g. each side gets two Panthers and an SMG company, and an 81mm mortar FOO on a loaded chess-board map - I mean, how much more exciting can CM get? Rock on!

was less to do with captured vehicles and everything to do with the rampant "ladderers" who seem to want to hi-jack CMBB purely for their own ends; those ends often being at odds with the designers (and a large propotion of the forums participants) intentions and requirements.

On the basis of many of the postings I have read on the forum over the last year, I agree with him completely.

[Andreas]

Thanks Jim, I am glad someone got it

Let me know if you are on for drinks Friday. We may have to organise the bigger get together for Thursday, but I'd be on to meet you for one after work.

[KEEF888]

Originally posted by Francesco:

... if so even the Maus should have been modeled... or not?

Personally, I would have loved for the Maus to have been modeled just to see how damned huge it would have been with +4 scale enlargement on!

[Jack Carr]

Kwazydog,

Thanks for the clearjup on that sample pic. Sounds great.