Demo decision blues...

[Barrett's Privateer]

Sorry to use a thread on another "Should I buy this game?" type of question.

I've tried to following the many threads regarding some negative opinions on the demo/game but they all quickly turned into gordian knots.

Any Alexander's out there?

Here's my position:

Played CMBO regularly for 21 months.

Have dabbled in PBEM for a year or so.

Not wealthy!!! (This one is important:)

Solid laymans knowledge of WWII history but more dabbler than enthusist.

Not significantly interested any particular campaign/theater.

More interested in general stratgic and tactical theory/application than any historical reinactment. IE- I like Chess more than a Civil War reinactment

SOooooo....

Does the CMBB version of game have anything to offer me, that CMBO doesn't?

Or more specifically: Does CMBB have $45 worth of upgrades over CMBO.

(I repeat- this is a very poor man speaking)

Now, don't shoot me!- But my VERY personal opinion based ONLY on my preferences and experiences with the demo

indictate a strong no.

My overall impression of the gameplay (Again note above disclaimer!) is that they overall "feel" has changed significantly from that of the original.

I personally found it now seems to leave me feeling frustrated.

It's not unlike hand-to-hand combat underwater. I'm left feeling I have to fight my own forces and envirorment, as much or more as I do my enemy.

Now, since I suspect that this limit of battlefield C&C is probably historically accurate, I'm guessing it is a part of game design and is intentional.

So, am I right in concluding that CMBB doesn't have anything (or enough) to offer me _personally_ that I wouldn't get out of CMBO (or Chess for that matter.)

[aka_tom_w]

Those are good questions.

I particuallarily like these two lines:

i) Does CMBB have $45 worth of upgrades over CMBO.?

ii) I personally found it now seems to leave me feeling frustrated. It's not unlike hand-to-hand combat underwater. I'm left feeling I have to fight my own forces and envirorment, as much or more as I do my enemy.

Interesting comments

I appreciate your honesty and candor.

I would guess if money is an issue you might not really enjoy CMBB and likely would not get your money's worth out of CMBB.

But the real question is:

"Did you get your money's worth out of CMBO?"

-tom w

[Barrett's Privateer]

But the real question is: "Did you get your money's worth out of CMBO?"

Absolutely, One of the finest games I've ever owned!

But in a way that's part of the problem. CMBB doesn't 'feel' like CMBO to me.

Also, but in this case a penny saved wasn't a penny earned, it was just less debt incurred!

If I was to try ot pay BTS for what CMBO was worth I'd have to become they're indentured servant for years!!!

Seriously, I would be happy to buy the game as a investment in future BTS products but my impression is they're design goals are actually moving away from my interests. My money would only speed them on that journey.

[Dirtweasle]

A choice in essence between groceries, or a new pair of shoes for the little one *OR* CMBB?

Forget about it - we are talking about a game. If you have any doubt, you've realy answered yourself already spend the money on your family.

[Panzer Leader]

Hmm, interesting question. I would still say that yes, you should get it, and here are my reasons, which have been tailored to fit what I see as your needs.

The unit database has been vastly increased to include most early and all mid-war varients of tanks and other units. This will give an added dimension of fighting, since some vehicles will not be able to penetrate others, speed, mobility, and command will have a deeper impact. As a tactical game, this would definitely be favorable, since more and different units increase tactical choices.

Improved realism in common elements. By this I mean especially MGs and also artillery, not to mention the smaller and less noticeable elements (better hit penetration, etc.) Added realism means richer and more varied oucomes to battles, since realism is the ultimate in what we strive for.

Better graphics and sound.

More lanscaping options, factories, doodads, etc.

Bottom line, if you can afford a computer to run it, you can afford it, so if the above elements sound appealing, get this thing pre-ordered!

[kunstler]

Hi Barrett,

I think my interests are pretty in sync with yours. And money is an issue as well.

And I agree with your assessment from the demo; I think the game is becoming more hard core/simulation, which is not a criticism but an observation. It's great for some and not for others.

From a pure game point of view it may be a little harder to get into for folks like us.

On the other hand, I have an interest in history as well, and it seems a better sense of how things flowed in combat is to be gained from CMBB than CMBO.

The other thing to take into consideration is that the demo showcases extreme situations: one can always play with veterans in the full version. I'm not looking forward to commanding the conscript hordes much either (I have more respect for Russian commanders now, as they had crap to work with compared to the excellent German military machine, and still won).

Considering the scope of the fighting, the variety of vehicles and the educational value of what's offered, I decided it was worth the investment.

I'm guessing military people will find it fits closer with their real life doctrines and play more; I may play less, as I'm no military genius and I'm more likely to be frustrated by the steeper learning curve and greater difficulty.

On the other hand, I've found games that had a steep learning curve to be immensely rewarding once you get over the hump. That's my two cents, for what it's worth.

Mind you I'll be crucified by the forum antibodies for saying any of this.

kunstler

[Chad Harrison]

If there was ever $52 (in US) that you should spend on a game, it is in CMBB. Despite all the gripping that is around, CMBB is bounds and leaps ahead of CMBO. The improvements to the major factors of the game (tanks, artillery, infantry *especially MG's) make it worth the upgrade alone. Not to mention all the other new improvements to various places in the engine.

However, I imagine that there will always be other people playing CMBO and looking for someone to play against. So, you can always stick with CMBO, and play those who are still playing it or against the AI. That theory is along the lines of you never know how much Nintendo sucks, until you buy a super Nintendo. I still live very happily with my old N64. Games are cheap!

Chad

[Sitzkrieg]

There are just a few changes that would make CM:BB better than CM:BO.

Look here for just a few. I read this last night and was suprised by some of the new and improved features. Makes me want two weeks to pass just that much faster.

Keith

[ September 10, 2002, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: sitzkrieg ]

[Zulu]

Easy answer.

"Played CMBO regularly for 21 months."

"Absolutely, One of the finest games I've ever owned!"

Unless the Eastern Front holds absolutely no interest for you, then

$55 US / 21 months = 8.7 cents per day.

Cheap entertainment at that price.

[Barrett's Privateer]

Dirtweasle,

Maybe I overstated my point. I'm not quite that desperate (yet)!

My poverty is more 'of humble means' than improverished.

Panzer Leader,

I admit the new elements you mention REALLY appeal to me. But while you've listed some very good trees, the forest I've seen so far still didn't appeal to me.

My biggest reservation is still the abstract 'feel' I get. It's great, it just wasn't... fun?

That's why the demo problems are so disconcerting to me personally.

I still haven't figured out if the general 'ebb and flow' of CMBB gameplay a fuction of the game engine or the demo selection.

[Tarquelne]

Bottom line, if you can afford a computer to run it, you can afford it

As a privateer his computer might be stolen.... but many would rather scuttle thier ship rather than give up their copy of CMBB...

BP: If $$ is a big concern and you're still enjoying CMBO then I doubt that CMBB would be worth it. You can contiune to enjoy CMBO for free, and while I think CMBB is a great improvement, and well woth the $$, it isn't a wholly new experience, and it isn't free.

If you discover you can't find enough CMBO PBEM opponents because they've switched to CMBB, then it'd certianly be worth the $$.

If you find yourself pining for the wide open spaces of the steppe, or wondering what's wrong with your MGs, then it'd be worth the $$.

So why not just wait? While waiting you can gather more opinions, see if anything is changed in the patches, maybe try the demo again, maybe visit a buddy who has CMBB. At some point you might be willing to sell CMBO, and put the money toward defraying the cost of CMBB... maybe you'll find someone selling CMBB cheap.

Maybe you'll get rich.

It sounds like purchacing CMBB would be a risk ("Grr... I wish I'd spent the $45 on something else!") that you don't need to take. I doubt that BFC is going anywhere, just wait awhile.

[tiborhead]

Hey BP. My advice is, if you're not sure about purchasing the game, you should hold off until you hear/read some reviews of the Full version (which will, IMHO, negate all the crap surrounding the quality of the demo). If you're impressed by the reviews, just save a little money whenever you can, then order it when you can afford it.

Myself, hell, I can't afford it either. Damn'd student loans. :mad: But you can bet your freckles I'll be pre-ordering this weekend when I get my meager paycheck.

As for the different feel, well I say BFC did as they should have done. The Eastern Front was just a *little* bit different from the West, don'tcha know.

[Henry Kearney]

Barett's Privateer, is your username a reference to the POB series?

[Firefly]

I would go with Tarquelane here, there's no need to feel you have to buy CMBB, right now, barring any major disasters it will still be on sale in a year's time and you could probably save a little a month to pay for it. On the learning curve thing, I think a lot of that is probably unfamiliarity with the new concepts that will probably ease once you've played a few times. CMBO presented a challenge to a lot of of us used to pushing counters (or their electronic equivalent) around hex maps, but we got there in the end .

[gunnergoz]

Ditto for me, I bought CMBO based upon reviews, not upon the demo (which did not impress me, I didn't give it a fair chance to...)

Also, see if you can find a friend with the full version and try it at their house, and see for yourself.

Good luck

[V]

Originally posted by Barrett's Privateer:

But in a way that's part of the problem. CMBB doesn't 'feel' like CMBO to me.

Well, I don't think thatthat is its purpose. CMBO is going to play differently than CM:BB is. CMBO has a faster pace which some say is un-realistic, CM:BB has a slower pace which I have heard is more realistic.

I prefer CM:BB, judging by the demo only, over CM:BO mainly because CM:BB is a far better war game. I am much more interested in the East Front. And I flat out enjoy watching the game system grow and get better. I also enjoy more realism and added options to CMBB which were not in CMBO like the death clock, command tanks andtank formations, the "uh-rah" of the Soviet infantry, the extreme fog of war.

One of the better parts of the CMBO experience for me was playing QB with my brother in Nevada via the TCP/IP.

CMBB will still be able to provide that, the demo depicts most green Russian troops, I am sure they would not be as frustrating to play in 1945 with regs or vets being a little more common in fair fights.

Sorry to ramble, but I think that the demo is being unfairly judged by the scenarios which were chosen to be included. Mind you, I think they are excellent scenarios, but would maybe question why not a more even combined arms late war scenario or street fight was not included, as it seems like this has bothered many people. (not me, I'm a happy camper as is!)

Judging the game by the demo scenarios is wrong and does little justice, I think, to what is a fine tactical wargaming system which will do nothing but get better as crack scenarios are released by the design community and beautiful mods make the game gather new life.

So, yes, CMBB does not feel like CMBO, but to me, with an eye towards realism and not so much "game-ism" (no offense intended by the use of the G word) which CMBB brings to me. Actually, CMBB will play a better "game" than CMBO, albeit more detailed and maybe frustrating to the Lay person.

Sorry for bad grammar and spelling, just trying to help.

-V

[ September 10, 2002, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: V ]

[Barrett's Privateer]

That's Ok, V. You have good comments, and grammer never counts with me.

Ok guys I think I got it...

'too early, wait and see,'

Thanks all.

With luck, time will prove my first impression of the demo wrong and I'll hear the full version of CMBB will play as slick as it looks.

The nickname 'Barrett's Privateer's' is from a very popular folk (ie- 'Drinking' song from my neck o' the woods.

[ September 10, 2002, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: Barrett's Privateer ]

[Diceman]

Originally posted by Barrett's Privateer:

Not wealthy!!! (This one is important:)

Are you only going to buy one game this year, and if so, is there another game that will fill the holes in your gaming library better? If I had to choose between say Icewind Dale II and CMBB I'd go with CMBB, but I'm an armor nut.

More interested in general strategic and tactical theory/application than any historical reenactment. IE- I like Chess more than a Civil War reenactment:)

I've studied chess, and I'd call it a gentleman's game. That is to say, you win or loose on the merits of your play, not cheesy tricks. The new features of CMBB make it more of a gentleman's game than CMBO.

My overall impression of the gameplay (Again note above disclaimer!) is that they overall "feel" has changed significantly from that of the original.

I personally found it now seems to leave me feeling frustrated.

My general impression is those that didn't like playing with, or had no interest in playing with unprofessional soldiers, i.e. conscript and green troops, really hate it now, or at least find it very frustrating. If reorganizing conscripts is not your idea of fun, play higher quality troops. I suspect many of the gripes people have will fade away when they have the full game, and can play scenarios and quick battles that are more their speed.

So, am I right in concluding that CMBB doesn't have anything (or enough) to offer me _personally_ that I wouldn't get out of CMBO (or Chess for that matter.)

Only you can truly answer that question. But as a competitive gamer, CMBB clearly is such an improvement in game mechanics, such as firing arcs, that I may not return to the western front until BFC does.

[Barrett's Privateer]

Outstanding posts guys!

Really insightful and well-communicated viewpoints.

Optimistically I had at best expected an angry 'no' in response, with optional assements of my intelligence and directions on where I should go to.

The more I know about how everyones background/game-tastes etc. compare to mine the better I'll know how well CMBB fits me.

[Battlefront.com]

BP,

There is no harm in waiting. None at all. If in 2 months you either feel the game is right for you, or you hit the lottery and don't care about money any more (hey, it could happen ), then you can make the purchase free and clear of doubts. Seeing as you like CMBO so much, and got more than your money's worth out of it, I am sure you will love CMBB. Since we aren't planning on going out of business in the next couple of weeks, if you should decide to order later on... we'll still be here

I think two comments above are worthy of seperate discussion. One is that CMBB is catering more towards the hardcore. The other is that CMBB doesn't "feel" like CMBO. Some thoughts...

1. CMBO was always catering to the hardcore, from the first day it was conceived until the day it was last patched. That was our primary goal from a simulation standpoint. What we also did at the same time was made sure it was also easy to play and enjoyable. These things do not have to be mutually exclusive. So it would be a bit wrong to suggest that we have changed our tune

2. CMBB does feel different than CMBO. If it didn't, we would have not done our job. The Eastern Front is an entirely different experience than the Western Front. Not only are the units different, but the terrain and tactics are also familiar yet not the same. Different isn't a bad thing though. I think, in fact, that more people will like the "feeling" of Eastern Front more than the Western Front. At the very least it is far more varied than the Western Front in all ways.

I do think that for some the Eastern Front is going to be a bit overwhelming at first. Very few people here, grognard or casual wargamer, can answer off the top of their head what a Soviet T-38 is and when it was in use, for example. Even fewer would be able to tell me what the difference is between a Romanian platoon and a Hungarian one. And not just the organization, but what weapons they used. So on that score I think the self proclaimed "grognards" are going to be pretty much in the same boat as the more casual CMBO players.

But I think this is all good. I hate games that feed me exactly what I know and expect. I can't learn or broaden my horizons or understanding of history, warfare, or even geography if I don't experience something new and challenging. And the latter is the big thing for me. If I am not being challenged I am not having fun. CMBB is, without any question of a doubt, challenging.

Well... more food for thought at the least

Steve

[Rick614]

Hey BP,

My prediction is before the end of the year you will buy CMBB. I was going to say that by the end of the year you will own CMBB but then you might think that I was going to buy you a copy for Christmas and that ain't going to happen. Good luck.

[kevsharr]

But in a way that's part of the problem. CMBB doesn't 'feel' like CMBO to me.

[/QB]

Funny but that's the same way I feel,but of the complete opposite.I find playing cmbb somehow more interesting and replayable than cmbo.I have owned cmbo since Jan and I swear i've played cmbb's demo more than cmbo.I don't know why exactly,maybe it's the increased control you have over the unit's movement and action's.In cmbo you could either move,run or crawl.Or maybe it's the graphic's,I like to highlight a unit hit tab then go all the way to ground level and them zoom-in,you can see realistic grass on the steppe in Citadel and when you move thru it you feel as if your actually parting it as you travel,not like cmbo's colored pool table.All I know is I'm putting the change from my pocket every day in a bottle to get the "real-thing"

[tiborhead]

Posted by BFC: if you should decide to order later on... we'll still be here

Yeah, well you'd better be. I don't want any foul ups, like that time I ordered all those .99 cent porno movies and the company never sent 'em. I lost 10 bucks on that deal.

[Fuerte]

One thing that may be relevant here is that the better the AI is, the more the game engine makes decisions instead of you, the less there is a game. This was discussed in CMBO forum ages ago. CMBB is perhaps less a game in this sense, its more like a simulation. But I don't have enough experience on CMBB demo at this point to make this claim. I surely enjoyed the tutorial, those Russian sounds sound very realistic! Now I am testing the Citadel scenario, playing PBEM game locally, and it surely feels different than CMBO. It might be better. One thing is sure: I'm buying CMBB when it comes to Finland.

Btw, is there a bug? Alt+B does not bring up the scenario briefing while playing Russian in Citadel PBEM.

[Renaud]

Please bear with me as I take this opportunity to blab about how much I love the CMBB demo.

I played the tutorial and yelnia backwards and forwards (saving citadel for tonight) and I am thrilled. I love games that provide that 'you are there' feeling and CMBB really comes through on this. The sound and graphic improvements, not to mention apparently improved AI behavior and morale effects, make this game a no-brainer for me. Yes, it's much more challenging to command the attack, which I can only view as a drastic improvement in realism, gameplay and challenge-factor. But then I'm a realism freak. I want a simulation. So any movement in that direction is an improvement from my perspective.

They just got my $45.