What is the Russian Advantage?

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Hi gang,

After lots of CMBO experience, I just got CMBB a week ago. I can't figure out those crazy Russians. With all of their tank and infantry liabilities (lowered rank, command issues, overall tank quality, major artillery disadvantages, etc...), there must be some compensating advantages over the Germans to keep the game balanced. But I can't figure it out!

So why would I ever choose to play as the Russians instead of the Germans? In CMBO the axis and allies had different strengths and weaknesses. The Germans had better defensive options (fortifications), a wider variety of infantry, and some truly powerful and resilient tanks. The Allies sacrificed this raw power for nimbleness and speed.

I was anticipating that the Russian troops would be significantly cheaper, so that I would have lots of cannon fodder to throw at my enemy (a la the representation of Stalingrad in "Enemy at the Gates"). But infantry units with little to no anti-tank ability are just about as pricey as the more effective German infantry.

Please share insight on why I should play the Russians, along with some useful tips for playing them effectively.

Dr. Rosenrosen

[Panzer76]

Oh man, you could wite lots about this subject, but I'll keep it short, Im sure some one else will give som tips also. I, find it easier to play as the russians, why?

1. In QB you can spend more points on armour and art. than as germans.

2. If you use the russians tanks correctly they are excellent. The T-34 series are my faviourite, they will slaughter any inf with cannister rounds and heaps of HE ammo, and still be treath to axis armour.

3. The russian armour and inf are cheaper than germans.

When playing russians, remember you dont have a flexible, rapid responding force. You have a delicat Juggernaut. Use your overvelming firepower to good effect.

Take your time, as your troops most often than not has a low experience level, keep them in CC at all times.

Do not bother with larger caliber than 120 mm mortars (in ME) as the delay time will render them almost useless.

You gotta "unlearn" tactics from CMBO, ecpecially inf tactics!

Ok, to sum up, leap frog forward while your numerical advantage keeps overwatch. Treat them like small children. Do not try to use German tactics, pit many a russian tank against 1 german tank, engange from close distance, try to flank them.

Since the war rages for many years the "edge" will shift many times over the period.

Hmmm.. I see I dint do a very good job, not very structured, but hey, Im not getting marks for this! Yay!

[xerxes]

Guess you haven't tried any late summer 1941 encounters. The KV "super-heavy tanks*" are true monsters (for 1941).

I've had a single KV that was dug-in in a scenario. The KV is in a critical location in the path of the German war machine. After my KV smoked 8+ PzIIIs, PzIVs, and ACs, the german commander has abandoned that attack path.

The KV has taken countless hits without even a partial penetration.

* As referred to by German commanders.

[MikeyD]

Worse tanks? Try playing PzIIs vs T34-76s in 1941!

Worse infantry? Try playing Volksturm vs Guards units in 45!

[K Jonsson]

Originally posted by Dr. Rosenrosen:

So why would I ever choose to play as the Russians instead of the Germans?

Please share insight on why I should play the Russians, along with some useful tips for playing them effectively.

Because they ar sooo much cooler!

They've got the human wave option. Learn to use it well.

Did I say that the T34 was cool? Wel it is! And it can be useful as well. The russian gets to buy more armour in a combined arms QB, this coupled with cheap (radioless) tanks makes for a very formidable force. Forget about artillery, unless you have TRPs. The russians bring their artillery on tracks to the battlefield. Especially on the attack!

An example from my own experience. In my first (and only) QB so far I was defending as russians in 42. I had two platons of T34 and my opponent had one platoon of panzer38s and one platoon halftrucks with 37mm guns. His tanks couldn't hurt me. Well, they could, but not easily. The game ended when all his armour was lost with only one of my tanks immobilized.

Someone else might have other suggestions, but this type of game suit my playing style

/Kristian

[Commander]

There is one unit the Soviets lack and that is a Panzershrek or Bazooka type of weapon. I know they have the AT rifles but you need a lot of them and they seem worthless against the large German tanks.

In CMBO you could play a pure infantry force against German armor as long as you had bazookas. This type of battle would be nearly impossible in CMBB.

[Spook]

It ultimately depends on what period you wish to play CMBB as the Soviets.

If you're trying to play the Soviets in the 1941-42 timeframe, such as through Quick-Battle generation, then right away, you have to allow that overall Soviet infantry experience and commander abilities are going to be a bit handicapped. But it terms of anti-tank (AT) ability, I don't think the Soviets are inherently that much more crippled than German infantry of the same timeframe. In fact, Soviet armor on a tank-by-tank basis is more daunting, except for the platoon-command constraints due to typical lack of radios.

My driving recommendation for playing earlier-war Soviet infantry is this: don't try to maneuver or fight on open ground. Seek cover, seek the close fight, and be prepared to mass your forces a bit more for better "control." Against armor, many Soviet squads will carry molotov cocktails, and I've taken out German tanks in CMBB with these. It's the same facing German infantry. Out in the open, their machinegun capabilities are better on average. Get the Germans in closer, and firepower evens out more. And the Soviet SMG's are far better than German SMG's. A Soviet full-SMG squad is especially daunting at less than 100 meters range, if you're able to acquire this type of infantry.

And to AT guns, the Soviet 45mm isn't much to crow about, but neither is the German 37mm "door-knocker." Again, seek cover, and seek to shoot German armor in the flanks, of which most German vehicles in the 1941-42 timeframe aren't imposing at this aspect.

[aka_tom_w]

Well war is a full contact sport and don't the Russian's usually get the "Home Field Advantage"?

-tom w

[Nippy]

My 2 cents on the subject...

[Mud]

Those PPSh platoons are very, very brutal -- and even the HQ gets all PPSh, heh. PPSh + T34/76 w/ canister makes for nasty close-quarters anti-infantry fighting; try "Last Stand at E...", Russian assault from all sides on SS+Volksturm.

Other notes--

* Katyusha and incendiary-rocket prep barrages are fun.

* You've got nasty rocket-launching heavily-armored aircraft... if you can afford them, of course...

* The M17 meat-chopper/anti-aircraft vehicle. It's a remote 4x0.50...

* T-34s not only are brutal to infantry, but they're good on lousy ground. Try "A Warm Place to Sleep" and you'll _love_ (or hate, if you choose the Germans) that T-34.

* T-34 variants that have both a cannon and a flamethrower for causing yet more pain to infantry.

* For fans of big guns, 122mm cannon in a TURRET, in contrast to the 128mm-armed turretless bog-happy slow-as-molasses low-ammo JagdTiger. Sure, the Sturmtiger beats it for size, but rarity, accuracy and reload time also matter somewhat...

[Andreas]

Vodka and Machorka.

[Nippy]

* The M17 meat-chopper/anti-aircraft vehicle. It's a remote 4x0.50

You mean "The Fantastic Rout wagon"? Oh yeah! Once you clear out the enemy tanks, sit that baby at the edge of an open area and watch whole German Infantry Companies Rout right off the map.

SU-100 also gives the Germans a nasty surprise. Pretty much everything but the King Tiger and JadgPanther get cut down to size real fast.

The 12.7mm HMG is pretty nice too. It's much better to use on wide open maps as you can really reach out and "touch" any German infantry it has LOS on.

The super cheap 76.2mm Spotters make for some nice prep strikes and good smoke cover. I never had much luck with the Katusha though, they never seem to do much damage and they are too expensave to buy enmass.

And don't forget the Uber-Ampolut!

(You laugh, but I took out a Tiger I using a Ampolut and 2 PTRD teams. It felt good. Real Good.)

[LightningWar]

Soviets get a lot more armor. And just like CMBO once you have control of the armor you can walk the map with some patience.

In the few IP games I have played. I got a couple of Stugs and maybe a captured T-34 vs 4 IS-2s or 3s? And a ISU-152.

Even on a good day I have no chance. I could take 1 Tiger but since most maps are not wide open fields but resemble CMBO. That is worthless also. Tiger is no match at the ranges I am playing for 5 tanks.

So after my armor is killed off it is only a matter of time before they rout my infantry. Especially since Infantry seems to rout if a stray round lands within 100 feet of them.

LW

[Redwolf]

The most decisive advantage for me is the speed of the Russian tanks, especially on difficult ground (scattered trees, mud etc.). Using T-34s you can usually shoot up the German infantry without slow-turret German tanks (not to speak of StuGs) getting enough shots off to your tanks. You can also slowly corner the German tanks from several sides which will make for tough decisions on your opponent's commander's part.

If the German commander is indecisive, he will not make the required brave moveeo to come out and shoot up your tanks while he is in a favourable position. I had several game where this did not happen and the German tanks were untouched, but without infantry cornered at a map side, and usually without HE ammo.

I most miss an AT gun which has enough punch and is halfway portable, like the PaK40.

[demoss]

Don't discount the StuGs against ISUs, and maybe even IS-2s (haven't tried that matchup). In a recent playing of [CENSORED], I saw three StuG IIIs score more frontal kills against my ISUs than four Tigers did. Yes, the range was a little shorter (500-750 m instead of 750-1000 m), but they REALLY racked up the kills.

[Windopaene]

RE: Anti-tank capabilities of Russian infantry

Finished up a QB the other night. Regular and Veteran Russian mechanized force against random germans. When I saw I wasn't going to be allowed ANY armor, I decided to pick up an airplane. I got LOTS of ATRs and a couple of Uber-Ampoulets. Two platoons of recon squads, one 82mm mortar, three halftracks, two armored cars and on DSK 12.7. Hilly wooded map with two flags, one on my left flank in the tall pines (small), one more near the center, right on the edge of the woods (large). What was really interesting about this map was that between the two flags, just slightly beyond the woods was a large ridge. So any units on the edge of the woods couldn't see or be seen from most advancing enemy units in the valley.

I took the far left flag uncontested and unspotted, and set up a couple of squads for the ambush. My aircraft came in on turn two and launched what appeared to be rockets, with seemingly no tank hits .

On about turn 8 or so, I finally see what's coming up the valley at the center flag. A couple of 251/10s and a PzIV. I get a couple of the ATRs into striking range. Dead halftracks. They are still getting pounded when spotted by the tank though. Finally I rush 6 ATRs out of the woods onto the open ground at the top of the ridge. I swear I must have had 30 or so ATR hits over the next 20 turns. The tank keeps on rumbling towards the center flag.

He gets two of my halftracks before I finally get a mech squad to drop a molotov right down the top of the buttoned hatch and the crew bails.

Moral of the story - ATRs good agains halftracks, bad against tanks. Molotovs - better than you might think. Minedogs - priceless...

[CRSutton]

It is all said here. There are many cool reasons to play the Russians. There is a learning curve but they are fun and have some neat weapons. Use your big artillery in preliminary bombardments. 300 mm rockets can really bring home the love. If you think you are up agains German tanks buy a Strumovik with rockets and cannon. German tanks are expensive and it hurts when airplanes take on or two out.

Also, unlike CMBO, you can really use light field pieces offensively. In any but the most open terrain, buy them along with a truck move them up to cover or reverse slope and then use the move to contact command. Usually, they will then spot before being spotted and get off a few shots before anybody knows. Very good infantry support and will get the light tanks and hts as well.

Maxim mg is a slow pig but once in position very useful for suppression. 50mm mortar gets a large amount of ammo. Cheap and handy. LGM is very useful on offense. T34-85 is one of the best tanks for the money in the game. Fast turret, good armor, low gp, good HE, good AP. What more can you want?

[Redwolf]

Yeah, forgot about airplanes.

If you are in a timeframe where one side has clearly superiour armor (early war KV/T-34, mid-war StuGs) I find it fully legitimate to buy a tank-busting aircraft, even more so since for the timeframes I gave the opposite side has low rarity on such planes (which is not a conicidence, BTW).

Molotovs don't really work for me on any armor I couldn't take out with an anti-tank rifle, too. But I moved guns in CMBB battle with good success. Foxholes in woods are useless in CM anyway, so unless you are spotted the guns should be just fine like on defense.

[Maxx]

Originally posted by redwolf:

The most decisive advantage for me is the speed of the Russian tanks, especially on difficult ground (scattered trees, mud etc.).

I agree with Redwolf. Speed to flank GE armor is the Russian 'secret'. The T-34 has an impressive top speed for its size.

[demoss]

Foxholes in woods are useless in CM anyway,

I haven't found this to be true, especially if there's artillery about. Why do you say that?

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by demoss:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Foxholes in woods are useless in CM anyway,

I haven't found this to be true, especially if there's artillery about. Why do you say that?</font>

[Agua]

Originally posted by redwolf:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by demoss:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Foxholes in woods are useless in CM anyway,

I haven't found this to be true, especially if there's artillery about. Why do you say that?</font>

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Agua:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by redwolf:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by demoss:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Foxholes in woods are useless in CM anyway,

I haven't found this to be true, especially if there's artillery about. Why do you say that?</font>

[demoss]

I consider the difference between 14% and 23% to be pretty darn significant, myself.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by demoss:

I consider the difference between 14% and 23% to be pretty darn significant, myself.

I don't have CMBB inf ront of me, is that maybe for tall pine?

Anyway, this is a nice problem of number turning until you find what the audience may find appealing.

It means that the foxhole in woods will absorb of 40% of the firepower that would go to the gun in just woods, only 60% reaching the gun.

But turning the numbers it means that the gun in a foxhole in woods is only 10% better than a gun only in woods.

Same numbers, different feel.

Overall the gun will die anyway when somebody seriously shoots at it and without the foxholes you will at least not have broken crews running back and pushing it out of the foxhole...