CCBB vs. Squad Leader

[awdougherty]

Hello, just joined this forum since my copy of CCBB is on its way (never played the first). Anyway, I tried to search for this but didn't see anything.

Me, my brother, and my friends have played various war games for a long time, including some Squad Leader which we enjoyed tremendously.

Of course, now we're older and on our seperate ways. When I saw that CCBB came with a PBEM system, I was hoping my friends and I could resume our wargaming electronically. I read a review that said these games are the unofficial computer versions of the Squad Leader series.

Any thoughts on that? Have my friends and I finally found a way to "replace" one of our board games? Thanks.

[rune]

Yes, playing by pbem or tcp/ip is a lot of fun, even if you don't get to argue over the rules. Use real tactics, and you will do fine. Welcome to the collective...

Rune

[Captain Wacky]

CCBB? Close Combat: Barbarossa to Boring

[awdougherty]

whoops, my apologies for calling it CCBB instead of the correct CMBB.

I could never get into the close combat games.

[VicKevlar]

Just as an FYI.

When 360 Pacific (game company) went under they were developing a game called Project X. The game (and people) moved to Avalon Hill where it was renamed Beyond Squad Leader. A break with Avalon Hill occured (over royalty disputes IIRC for the W@W series) and was picked up by Microsoft......and was renamed again to Close Combat.

[Battlefront.com]

awdougherty,

Welcome! Combat Mission is pretty much everything SL/ASL players wanted SL/ASL to be, but couldn't because of the inherent limitations of paper and dice. But beyond this and the similar scale, the two games have nothing to do with each other in any way. Combat Mission - Beyond Overlord was developed while BTS was technically still working with Avalon Hill, but in fact the game never had anything to do with SL/ASL or Avalon Hill.

VicKevlar is correct about the progression of Close Combat. However, like Combat Mission it was never designed to be a computer version of SL/ASL. It was originally promoted as "Computer Advanced Squad Leader" (IIRC) and then "Beyond Squad Leader" simply for marketing reasons.

Steve

[ December 18, 2002, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[Ace Pilot]

Welcome, awdougherty,

I used to be a big fan of Squad Leader, but after playing CM, I haven’t pulled out the boards, counters and rule books once. A number of the forum members have even converted many of the Squad Leader scenarios over to CM. You can find most of them at the Scenario Depot.

[Barrold]

When I was younger and played SL or Panzerblitz I had to imagine the action in my head.

With CMBB, I can actually see the representation of my Pioneer squad assaulting a building with a flurry of grenades and satchel charges. In real time, in three dimensions, and with amazing sound, it is without equal.

BDH

[Coffin 'Enry]

Just to add my two pennyworth.

When I first saw CMBO I said, "Thats squd leader". It wasn't of course, it is, for the reasons described above, so much better than SL ever could be.

CMBO and now CMBB are the games that I have waited twenty years to be able to play on a home computer.

PBEM just takes the whole thing to a new and higher plane.

In my view, for what thats worth, CMBB is the best bang for your wargaming dollar than you have ever had offered to you.

Cheers

[jd]

Then of course there is Grog Dorosh's Conversion and mods like

and

at his GD for CM website

Don't know if he finished it but he has it listed

[ December 18, 2002, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: jd ]

[Commissar]

I don't know about you guys, but I've always considered CM to be computerized SL even if they weren't officially. It's certainly closer to SL than that atrocity Hasbro put out two years ago.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by jd:

Then of course there is Grog Dorosh's Conversion and mods like

and

at his GD for CM website

Don't know if he finished it but he has it listed

Thanks, JD. Working on it.

[Headshot]

Anybody remember the old Kampfgruppe computer game from the mid-1980's that set the wargame world alight,gosh how I loved that game!

[Stryker]

I'm a long time SL/ASL player. If you like those games, I can't see any reason on earth why you would not like CM. However, I've found the turn around with PBEM way too slow to really get into, and because of my unreliable schedule have not done much TCP/IP. Bottom line though, CM is the best game out there.

[Rickovich]

Originally posted by Headshot:

Anybody remember the old Kampfgruppe computer game from the mid-1980's that set the wargame world alight,gosh how I loved that game!

Yea I most certainly do.In my opinion was to computer wargames as Panzerblitz was to board wargames.Very simplistic and far too abstract to be all that exciting,especially since SL had been around for about 7 yrs when it came out.When PB came out it was the first of it's type back then so one could over look it's shortcoming's.Wasn't till this fine series by BFC that I've actually enjoyed a computer version of those old standbys.There are many many things though one can do and simulate in SL/ASL that arent touched upon by the CM games(maybe oneday).I havent played with my 52 boards and 3 complete ASL unit set in several years.(I just decided to wait for something like this to come along.Now it has.I just want to do all those other things like in SL(not throw my skis away,use cossacks,paratroopers,reindeer drawn sleds in Finland etc etc etc.But at least with CM it dosent take forever to find the pieces and set up the board only to have one player or other sneeze and leave one wondering what may have been

[ December 18, 2002, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: Rickovich ]

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by Stryker:

I'm a long time SL/ASL player. If you like those games, I can't see any reason on earth why you would not like CM. However, I've found the turn around with PBEM way too slow to really get into, and because of my unreliable schedule have not done much TCP/IP. Bottom line though, CM is the best game out there.

Whoa! 27 posts in more than three years -- Kudos to the Ultra Stalker!

Be careful, Stryker -- three more posts and you lose that coveted 'Junior Member' status!

Steve

[laxx]

All this talk about old war games made me search on the net for old Eastern Front Games. Enjoy. The sw is available for dl as well under the banner of Abandonware.

BTW, the box covers look much better than the gameplay screens.

-------------------

Fire Brigade: The Battle for Kiev 1943

"One of the most overlooked wargames of all time, Fire Brigade is an exceptional game by Panther Games that simulates the 1943 battles around Kiev on the Eastern Front. Released only in Australia, Fire Brigade quickly gained a small following among die-hard wargamers for its tough AI, clean user interface, and realistic game engine. As M. E. Brooks points out in his synopsis: ?...good documentation and excellent packaging have yielded a game that has withstood the test of time, although the learning curve was somewhat long. One of the few games from the early years of computer wargaming that remains playable, although the game often seems to play itself.? If you are a fan of ?hardcore? wargames that boast a challenging AI and high replayability, Fire Brigade is a must have - a game that deserves at least as much recognition as classics from fellow Australian company, SSG. Two thumbs up! And big thanks to our resident cracker Mok for patching this oldie to run on new graphics cards

published: 1989

http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?id=2480

----------------

Gary Grigsby's War in Russia

"An operational/strategic simulation of the entire Eastern Front (1941-1945), this game was easily learned and played; sheer size and certain defects in the artificial intelligence presented the difficulty." Despite AI quirks, however, the game is undoubtedly Gary Grigsby's masterpiece, and in many ways the culmination of his dedication on perfecting the game engine for this World War 2 theatre that started with War in Russia for the Apple II in 1984 and the subsequent Second Front."

published: 1993

http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?id=445

----------------

Kampfgruppe

"A tactical simulation of warfare on the Eastern Front, this game was CGW's Game of the Year in 1985. Multiple options, but marred by a lack of joystick input and amorphous stacking (virtually an entire army could be crammed into a smallgeographic location). A classic that has been redone many times;the latest reincarnation will be Gary Grigsby's own STEEL PANTHERS III." [excerpt from M. Evan Brooks' Homepage] It was also one of the first wargames to offer line-of-sight options.Highly Recommended!

published: 1987

http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?id=582

---------------'

Panzer Battles

Panzer Battles is a great World War II wargame that is up to the normal high standards of wargaming legends Roger Keating and Ian Trout. It originally included 6 scenarios from the Eastern Front: Minsk, Moscow, Kharkov, Prokhorovka, Kanev, and Korsun, although the version here includes many more user-created scenarios. The game is based on the revolutionary game engine first used in Battlefront (which was released on Apple II and Commodore 64 only): it introduced corps-level combat and proper use of the chain of command to PC wargaming. The AI, however, is disappointingly weak, especially considering that it is usually SSG's hallmark in their games. Regardless, the game's intuitive interface, flexible gameplay, and excellent scenario editor help make it much better than an average wargame. Not SSG's finest hour, but still very good.

published: 1990

http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?id=808

----------------

World at War Series (a.k.a. Stalingrad etc)

"Atomic Games, best known for the V for Victory games published by Three-Sixty, has revamped their already highly evolved engine for these "World At War" games that capture bocage battles and several interesting stalemate situations in WWII. At a scale of one-hex-equals- one-kilometer, the map design vividly recreates the restricted, even claustrophobic, nature of the terrain. Excellent AI, campaigns, and intuitive interface make the series some of the best wargames ever made. Highly recommended! Note: This download includes all three World at War games, with special thanks to ML and Nick P "

Published: 1993

http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?id=1284

----------------

Second Front

"The Eastern Front of World War II, covered from start to finish. Different levels allowed one to see losses taken down to squad level. One could replace commanders, build armies, seize objectives -- it was all here, but it was soon replaced by [Grigby's own] War in Russia." [excerpt from M. Evan Brooks' Homepage]"

Published: 1990

http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?id=951

----------------

Tiger in The Snow

"SSI's first game for the PC was "... an operational simulation of the Battle of the Bulge, its most serious problem was a user interface which refused to allow the player to access his units. Instead, the order of battle was cycled through three times, and pity the gamer who did not input his orders by the third time -- primitive graphics, primitive play mechanics and a poor user interface." [excerpt from M. Evan Brooks' Homepage]"

Published: 1981

http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?id=1158

------------

Mac

-------------

Stalingrad

Published: 1994

http://mac.the-underdogs.org/?show=game&id=271

-----------------

Panzer Battles

http://mac.the-underdogs.org/?show=game&id=222

Published: 1990

------------

[ December 19, 2002, 02:57 AM: Message edited by: laxx ]

[laxx]

is that a bug on the box art of Second Front ? i didn't know Rommel was involved in the second front .....

[Firefly]

Originally posted by laxx:

is that a bug on the box art of Second Front ? i didn't know Rommel was involved in the second front .....

If by 'Second Front' they mean, as is normally the case, the landings in Normandy, he was very much involved. Until that incident with the Typhoon.

[Master Dullard aka flyingcursor]

Ah. The memories.

The thing I didn't like about Kampfgruppe was no stacking limit. I'd just pile them all on one square and blast my way in. Besides at that time I had an Amiga and the graphics and sound for Kampfgruppe were not even close to what could be done with that machine at the time.

Another good one was 'Russia at War' by SSI (or SSG). Corps level Eastern Front. I played that on the Amiga as well.

Does anyone remember "Universal Military Simulator?"

What a horrible game.

[ December 19, 2002, 07:27 AM: Message edited by: Master Dullard aka flyingcursor ]

[onodoken]

That is Guderian not Rommel.

[laxx]

ha.... i knew that squint was too good to be rommel...thanks.