Got it in Sacramento. Better game, but less relevant?

[Franko]

I've been playing now for an evening. Its by far the best wargame I have ever played. However, I have this sneaky suspicion that is not going to be as popular and well-loved as CMBO. I think its because the Western Front seems more personal for most of the players (I mean, how many Russians are buying the game?)

Also, the game is almost TOO good-looking. The last game's popularity appeared propelled by the mod-community, who, I think, built an avid following and excitement by designing stuff better than the original. Now that will be more of a challenge.

Good God guys, I hope I'm wrong. Meanwhile, I'm on the hunt for topo-maps for scenario design -- and its damn difficult.

Franko

[ September 24, 2002, 03:29 AM: Message edited by: Franko ]

[Rickovich]

I think you may be wrong there.But just my opinion.I personally waited for this to be released after playing the BO demo.This is where the war was fought,2/3rds or more of the germans faced the Soviets even in the end times.Just hardier fighting so to speak this front.And finally alot of gronard euros out there.

[Cameroon]

Originally I thought I might feel like that Franko, but after playing today I've changed my mind. Guess I'm attached at the soldier's level more than I thought (as opposed to the country or front).

As for being too pretty? I don't believe that's possible I love the mods for CMBO. There's probably not much left in my install that is original. But I really love the cohesion that the units display. I find it really impressive to see all my forces looking like they belong together. And the terrains are just gorgeous. Guess you could say I'm a happy customer

[Gyrene]

Originally posted by Franko:

I've been playing now for an evening. Its by far the best wargame I have ever played. However, I have this sneaky suspicion that is not going to be as popular and well-loved as CMBO. I think its because the Western Front seems more personal for most of the players (I mean, how many Russians are buying the game?)

Also, the game is almost TOO good-looking. The last game's popularity appeared propelled by the mod-community, who, I think, built an avid following and excitement by designing stuff better than the original. Now that will be more of a challenge.

Good God guys, I hope I'm wrong. Meanwhile, I'm on the hunt for topo-maps for scenario design -- and its damn difficult.

Franko

I sort of agree with you there Franko.

I got CMBB mostly for the improvements in game play rather than for the whole Eastern Front thing.

The fact that many CW & US vehicles are in the mix would make alternative scenarios (I.e. Western Europe & Desert) possible with CMBB, although I'm sure this will remain a minority use of the game.

I find myself not particularly caring about any of the sides, although I'll still favor playing the non-Axis forces.

We have to remember that CMBO was unlike anything before it and it's a very hard act to follow.

Gyrene

[Abbott]

I have always preferred the eastern front myself. CMBO was a great diversion while waiting anxiously for this one. The postman skipped me in Reno, maybe tomorrow!

[ September 24, 2002, 03:43 AM: Message edited by: Abbott ]

[ParaBellum]

I never really understood why people would base their opinion of games on the fact if "their" country was represented or not.

I liked to command japanese armies in 'Shogun-Total War', commanded french privateers in 'Pirates' and killed hundreds of t-72s in a US M1a1. I engage german armour in my trusty Il2 Sturmovik and built a chinese empire in CivIII. I've fought the Luftwaffe in a Hurricane and engaged B-17s in a 109.

I killed Tigers in Normandy with my brave polish troops and took cemetery ridge with Picket's men.

I care for my virtual Russians the same I do for my Panzergrenadiers, Canadians or Romanians.

I couldn't care less what country I'm 'fighting for' in a computer game as long as it's immersive, interesting and gives me a challenge.

Just my 0.2 $

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

I better like the Eastern Front...

All considered and hastily sumed up, indeed only the Eastern Front really mattered for the war in Europe !

This isn't a flame, and I don't want to dismiss the importance of US (and Brit ) role in what became the future of Western Europe, but from a military point of view the Eastern Front really was *the* war ...realize that no more than 10-15% of the Wehrmacht forces were committed to the West.

[Abbott]

Originally posted by Pascal DI FOLCO:

I better like the Eastern Front...

All considered and hastily sumed up, indeed only the Eastern Front really mattered for the war in Europe !

This isn't a flame, and I don't want to dismiss the importance of US (and Brit ) role in what became the future of Western Europe, but from a military point of view the Eastern Front really was *the* war ...realize that no more than 10-15% of the Wehrmacht forces were committed to the West.

Very true. Many people are unfamiliar with that fact. The east was the main front.

[Kwazydog]

I must admit even I quietly felt the same way before we started.

Personally I dont feel the need to play troops from my own country (thankfully as not many games represent the Aussies, hehe, so I would be screwed) but I did think the Eastern Front might not be quite as interesting for some unknown reason, probably becuase I knew little about it. The more I read about the Eastern Front though, the more it fascinated me.

From a wargame perspective the Eastern Front has much more to offer I think. Ive found the early war battle even more fun than the Panther slugfests.

Dan

[ September 24, 2002, 04:08 AM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[Hawk]

Originally posted by Franko:

I think its because the Western Front seems more personal for most of the players (I mean, how many Russians are buying the game?)

Yes, and there where of course no one but a few russkies and perhaps the odd German fighting there ... Oh, yes I see. There where no Americans fighting there!

Oh well, to each his own! But you might be surprised about the interest for the Eastern Front, also among American customers.

Cheers! :cool:

[Panzer76]

Less relevant?!?! The eastern front is by far the MOST relevant front of the entire WWII. I'll tell you what is less relevant, that's the little US adventure in westeren Europe right before the war ended. Everything else is just side shows compared to the eastern front. And, guess what, there is a world outside the US that have no interest commanding US troops western Europe. The customer base of BFC is now a lot more than just US players, especially after the CDV deal.

What you should have in your title is something like : "CMBB, less relevant for US players?". Maybe it is, but I dont care. Im VERY happy to see something else than the tired old "after D-Day" war game.

Just my 0.02 €

[Count Zero]

I remember I tought I wouldn´t be able to get into CMBO, since it only covered the comparatively uninteresting western front...

[von Lucke]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

From a wargame perspective the Eastern Front has much more to offer I think. Ive found the early war battle even more fun than the Panther slugfests.

Same here. I can't wait for a little T-26 vs Pz 35(t) pillow fight!

[zukkov]

less relevant for us players? maybe some, but not this us customer! the eastern front has always been my favorite. any true wargamer knows the war was won in the east, not the west...

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Franko:

I've been playing now for an evening. Its by far the best wargame I have ever played. However, I have this sneaky suspicion that is not going to be as popular and well-loved as CMBO. I think its because the Western Front seems more personal for most of the players (I mean, how many Russians are buying the game?)

I think you will be wrong. Personally i was disappointed they started with the boring West Front. France 44-45 has always been my least favorite theatre

[Lawyer]

I have the same anxieties as Franko, and I'm still waiting for CMBB to arrive! LOL.

For a lot of us, CMBO is a great mix of wargaming and bringing history to life (computer life, that is, since most of us have no real life). I've been reading up on the East Front, but I still don't have that "feel" for it. It's so vast in so many ways.

And I just can't get going yet for playing Russkies under Stalin. I would feel the same way playing the Chi-coms at Chosan. It's a hoot at the start, but will it have the staying power over my interest?

So Franko isn't questioning the relevancy of the Eastern Front in military or historical terms to me. I think he is just pointing out that a gamer needs a personal hook to a game to keep involved with it. CMBO certainly has that appeal for me. I'm not so sure about CMBB. But I'll give it a fair shot and try building some scenarios. I hope I can really get into it. But I'll still be playing CMBO too.

[Yank]

Good morning fellas. Well the east front will be more exciting IMO but

I'll tell you what is less relevant, that's the little US adventure in westeren Europe right before the war ended. Everything else is just side shows compared to the eastern front.

do you really think the Soviets would have done it without the insignificant contribution by the west. And I dont think the fellas that gave their lives in the west considered it a little US adventure. I'll bet neither of my grandfathers thought so, or their buddies that didn't make it home. Not trying to pick a fight just my 0.02$

[aka_tom_w]

These my personal feelings on this issue.

I posted them previously to the CMBO forum....

This may surpise some folks but the main reason I bought CMBB was to financially support the development of CMII the re-write, and because I am loyal and I REALLY have enjoyed CMBO enough to buy their next offering even if I have VERY LITTLE interest in the Eastern Front.

I am ALOT less interested in the Eastern Front because I speak NIETHER German or Russian so I sort of feel "alienated" from the action in the battles in the game. YES it is historically accurate, but I REALLY hope a sound mod comes out for english voice overs for all that German and Russian they are speaking.

...even Panzer Elite that is MADE in GERMANY offers english speakers with a great German accent.

I do appreciate the fact that the game came out with historically accurate native german and russian voices BUT I would feel WAY more comfortable with CMBB if I could play either the German side or the Russian side (any side that is) and listen to english speakers (ok with native german or russian accents would be cool), so that I could understand what my men are saying on the battlefield. ALL that work buy MadMatt doesn't really pay off for me because I REALLY want to know what they are saying to each other down there.

In CMBO I prefer the ALLIES (CND Brit or American) so that I can hear and understand what is being said down on the ground in the middle of the battle, I am less inclined to play other nationalities because I can't understand what they are saying and that leaves me sort of feeling somewhat "alienated" from the battle and the action.

That's only my opinion and I will bet most folks here really don't care about the non-english dialogue in CMBB. BUT I really did buy CMBB to financially support the NEXT BIG THING (CMII) which "should" be absolutely revolutionary after their experience with CMBO and CMBB and 2.5 years of development!

So that's my sales pitch for CMBB ... "Buy it to support CMII!"

-tom w

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Lawyer:

snip

So Franko isn't questioning the relevancy of the Eastern Front in military or historical terms to me. I think he is just pointing out that a gamer needs a personal hook to a game to keep involved with it. CMBO certainly has that appeal for me. I'm not so sure about CMBB. But I'll give it a fair shot and try building some scenarios. I hope I can really get into it. But I'll still be playing CMBO too.

YES well put!

" I think he is just pointing out that a gamer needs a personal hook to a game to keep involved with it. CMBO certainly has that appeal for me. "

That was my point EXACTLY!

-tom w

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by Yank:

do you really think the Soviets would have done it without the insignificant contribution by the west. And I dont think the fellas that gave their lives in the west considered it a little US adventure. I'll bet neither of my grandfathers thought so, or their buddies that didn't make it home. Not trying to pick a fight just my 0.02$

Compared to the Eatern Front, the westeren was a side show. Do *you* think that the allies could have landed in France if Germany was not fighting in the east? Not a chance in hell. Could Soviet have won the war without D-Day? Yes. Any life lost is a tradgedy. My point is that the Soviet effort was crucial to winning the war, more so than the western front. My grandpa was also in the war, even in a consentration camp, it does not alter the fact about the eastern front.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Franko:

Good God guys, I hope I'm wrong. Meanwhile, I'm on the hunt for topo-maps for scenario design -- and its damn difficult.

Franko

Try www.eastview.com - if you can afford 200 dollar dolls, you can afford to buy maps from these guys.

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

I am ALOT less interested in the Eastern Front because I speak NIETHER German or Russian so I sort of feel "alienated" from the action in the battles in the game.

-tom w

To each it's own I guess. English, German, Russian etc, none of these are my native language. Does it matter to me if I can understand what the little pixel guys says? Not much, there is only so many times you can hear the same phrase over and over again. And usually Im not at view lvl 1 to listen to them either. And Im sure you will pick up their meaning after a while.

But I have to say this, THANK GOD BFC uses native language instead of cheesy B-movie voice over stuff! My opinion is that thats just ridiculus.

It's trying to be as historical as possible, in every way.

Look at it as a way to learn more about the war. I can't see how it is possible to be interested in WWII and neglect the Eastern Front.

[Mafiozox]

Well, i don't think many people if at all agree with your opinion. the eastern front is a fascinating subject for most people who are interested in WW2.

The mighty Wehrmacht against the Great Red Army. in a computer game, covering every aspect of the fighting. that's grand.

I guess I don't have to tell you about all the big battles, operations, the heroic actions on the battlefield by both sides(i have a 500 page book about that subject) while the fighting on the western front only lasted 11 months, the fighting in the eastern front was around 4 years of non stop fighting.

in the fields, open grounds, cities, winter, fall spring and summer. don't forget that it was the soviets who ultimately defeated the third reich and the nazis, i think everyone are interested in the late war scenarios where you get to the final battles for berlin, classic way - russians vs germans.

[Herr Oberst]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Franko:

Good God guys, I hope I'm wrong. Meanwhile, I'm on the hunt for topo-maps for scenario design -- and its damn difficult.

Franko

Try www.eastview.com - if you can afford 200 dollar dolls, you can afford to buy maps from these guys.</font>

[Sgian Dubh]

I have to admit to being an American West Front addict.

BUT, Since I have started reading about the East Front to prepare for CMBB I have come to realise that I was really missing out.

It's like discovering an entire "addition" to an already beloved hobby.

I still am appalled by some of the things I read about. The profligate expenditure of human life to no real tactical or strategic end. The utterly inhumane conditions. I mean I have exprienced -40 to -50 degrees Farenheit and it was not pleasant (and I was equipped for it) - and I had the option of going inside where it was warm when I wanted to. I can't begin to imagine what it was like to live 24-7 with inadequate (for the Germans) equipment.

Personally, I'm greatfull that CMBB is 'encouraging" me to learn about the Eastern Front (which is a surprise b/c I was initially uncertain about buying CMBB for the same reason).