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Has anybody else noticed the bad scenario design

Achtung Stef
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Achtung Stef Junior Member

Achtung Stef

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Ive been playing CMBO since it came out and I always found the scenario design to be pretty good , it gave you plenty of tactical freedom and was well balanced, I have been playing CMBB for just over a week now and I have noticed that most of the scenarios Ive played have been mostly unbalanced and badly designed, I think there should always be a way for either side to win, has any body else noticed this?

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WWB Senior Member

WWB

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Exactly Pascal. We designers cannot know if we are making bad battles without constructive feedback. Saying "these scenarios suck" without saying why is kind of pointless.

So, pray tell, which scenarios suck and why?

WWB

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Andrew H. Senior Member

Andrew H.

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I think that CMBB scenarios are much better than CMBO scenarios, at least for playing against the AI. I generally found CMBO scenarios to be a walkover if I didn't give the AI extra troops and experience (which sort of defeats the purpose of playing a historical scenario); CMBB scenarios, by contrast, are challenging even against the AI. I thought that the scenarios were one of the most noticeable improvements over CMBO, in fact.

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Tanaka Senior Member

Tanaka

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Originally posted by Harv:

...If you're losing in most of the scenarios from both sides I'd look at your tactics before I'd start blaming the designers.

Originally posted by Henri:

yes, the CMBB scenarios are unbalanced, because I losethe same scenario from both sides! Well ok…

Henri

Attention, nowhere in his post he says something that leads into this conclusion…

Originally posted by Achtung Stef:

…it gave you plenty of tactical freedom and was well balanced, I have been playing CMBB for just over a week now and I have noticed that most of the scenarios Ive played have been mostly unbalanced and badly designed, I think there should always be a way for either side to win, has any body else noticed this?

I’ve played 2 in CMBB(hehehe); one was good and “fair”, the other was a total joke…

I thought to myself; “I know what Andreas wanted, he wanted to humiliate guys like me that brag themselves of never losing to the AI in CMBO, yes, that is the propose of this “thing” I just played smile.gif

More seriously now, as I’m much more pbem QB guy (or “fair” scenario*) then a scenario one, for me CMBB didn’t need any scenarios to buy it; any scenarios it brings, I consider it an add-on.

Also, I’m lazy, so I don’t do any scenarios, I just consume them, so I usually lack the “guts” to complain about them :D

*What is a far scenario? "I think there should always be a way for either side to win "

That’s an idea… What type of win? A CM win? …or just to do better then historically was done ? ;)

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Tarquelne Senior Member

Tarquelne

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CMBB scenarios, by contrast, are challenging even against the AI.
Quite possibly this is just the novelty of the CMBB improvements, but I've been enjoying CMBB scenarios a great deal even when (maybe because of luck, maybe because I'm "In the zone.") the scenario isn't challenging.

Maybe it's just that the little Pz38s are soooo cute!

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Pzman Senior Member

Pzman

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Originally posted by Vader's Jester:

I think that any scenario I loose sucks of bad design. Scenario designers: You have been warned!! tongue.gif

I guess we will have to look out for that in the future lol. :D I have enjoyed all the scenarios that I have played, yes even the ones I am making... :D Its a lot more fun to play the AI than before which helps.

[ October 25, 2002, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Panzerman ]

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Dirtweasle Senior Member

Dirtweasle

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I disagree Achtung Stef. I've found the scenarios to be very interesting, and immersive (sp?). While you may have a piint that *SOME* are not play balanced, that's not too much of a problem if the scenario is faithful to the history, or in the case of semi-historical scenarios has the requisute "look and feel"

Playing CMBB is a little harder at first than CMBO. Not everything that worked in CMBO translates directly to CMBB.

Play some smaller scenarios or QBs and work on eveolving your teactics and methods. Not to pick on you but I think you may want to work at the mechanics a bit.

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Renaud Senior Member

Renaud

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This really belongs in 'scenario talk', but till someone moves it... (POSSIBLE KHARKOV SPOILER AT BOTTOM)

The quality of the scenario's has been outstanding so far! I've worked my way through about 2 dozen on the CD, and 1 OP. There are some really clever designs going on here. I think some folks may be unhappy because many of the scenario's aren't 'balanced' in terms of 1-on-1 competition. Frankly I don't care about that.

My scenario favorites usually include one of more of the following aspects:

1) Gives you a feeling that 'yea, this could have happened in reality, I feel like i'm in a historical account of the east front'. Example: 'A Deadly Affair', 'Tiger Tiger', 'A morning at the Zoo (Kharkov Zoo)', 'Yelnia' from the demo.

2) is a clever idea: makes inventive use of the tools given to designers to create a believable action. example: 'A Deadly Affair' antipartisan action.

3) provides an impressive challenge against the AI when played from the correct side. example: Cemetery Hill, Hill 312, Aufsklarung...(sp?), kharkov zoo in the mud scenario.

4) great maps that look like real places. The kharkov zoo scenario has a great map. Highly recommended for QB play as well.

MINOR KHARKOV ZOO SPOILER******************

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I'm harping on the kharkov zoo scenario because I just played it last night. Man is that fun! I got tired of always playing as attacker in scenarios (usually the more challenging role) so I played soviets and increased german force by 100%. Truly a brutal struggle to the last gasp. Among the amazing events: The Aviary was finally over-run by a horde of fanatical fascists despite heavy losses. My defenders perished to the last man after brutal hand-to-hand combat...except for one lone lieutenant who hid (in a closet I suppose) as victorious SS streamed right past and over him. 5 minutes later he was still there when a German HQ tank pulled up 20 meters away. He threw his one remaining grenade in a graceful arc right into the hatch, single handedly destroying the tank! One grenade, one tank! It was amazing. There were several tanks parked there and they all looked the same to me but somehow he identified the command tank. Boris, write up another posthumous 'Hero of the Soviet Union' citation...

Ren

edit: oh yea I got a Draw (germans by a hair,52-48)

[ October 25, 2002, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Renaud ]

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MikeyD Senior Member

MikeyD

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Posted

As to unbalanced scenarios, I've occassionally complained that they're TOO balanced! A scenario involving a starved German outpost with no ammo in mid-winter being assaulted by a Guards armored division SHOULDN'T be balanced! War, like everything else in life, ain't always fair.

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Achtung Stef Junior Member

Achtung Stef

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Im back to deal with you angry angry people, to quote some scenarios that I thought were badly designed

1:- Message from goetz, I went germans And retreated to the ridge line by turn 10, I was expecting a good bloody fight but the russians had not got close enough to engage me in any way by the end of the battle, to me thats either bad AI or scenario design.

2:- Maxdorf, me and my dear friend were partaking in this scenario, my friend went the soviets and yours truly went the germans, from the amount of german equipment in this scenario my friend commented that the scenario was impossible to win from the soviets point of view, the crack king tiger could easily destroy the T-34s from distance and the troops in halftracks could easily overcome the defenders of the village, thats not much fun is it.

Also I have noticed that some of the scenarios have only one way to win, where the tactical thinking in that, I will return to quote some scenarios shorlty, Ill BE BACK.

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Nolloff Senior Member

Nolloff

Posted
Posted

Marxdorf certainly is not a hightlight. I was assuming it is designed for human vs. human play and if that´s the case this MUST get mentioned in the briefing. No one wants to spend two hours to find out that the scenario doesn´t work that way.

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I played it as Russians and quit after 20 or more turns because the German HT/infantry force didn´t advance into town.

As the Germans it was an easy win but not because the King Tiger was invincible (it´ll run out of ammo sooner or later) but because of the fact that the late Russian reinforcements arrived too late and the AI didn´t know what to do with them. Did you and your friend play it until the very end?

I think your expectations that every scenario should be playable from every side with a chance to win are not realistic. Many tough human vs. AI scenario will be unbalanced when played from the wrong side. That might be the requirement to create them the way they´re meant to be.

Better recommendations, that´s what I and especially new players need.

Nolloff

[ October 25, 2002, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: Nolloff ]

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V Senior Member

V

Posted
Posted
Originally posted by Achtung Stef:

[QB]Im back to deal with you angry angry people, to quote some scenarios that I thought were badly designed

1:- Message from goetz, I went germans And retreated to the ridge line by turn 10, I was expecting a good bloody fight but the russians had not got close enough to engage me in any way by the end of the battle, to me thats either bad AI or scenario design.

2:- Maxdorf, me and my dear friend were partaking in this scenario, my friend went the soviets and yours truly went the germans, from the amount of german equipment in this scenario my friend commented that the scenario was impossible to win from the soviets point of view, the crack king tiger could easily destroy the T-34s from distance and the troops in halftracks could easily overcome the defenders of the village, thats not much fun is it.

I have not played these scenarios, but your opinion is probably valid.

But what is not valid is claiming that most of the scenarios you played in CMBB are badly designed. Don't see how it is possible to play enough scenarios in the span of ONE week to start a thread about "bad scenario design" which implies that you are saying that most of the scenarios in CMBB are badly designed, IMO.

In your first post on this thread, you said: "I have been playing CMBB for just over a week now and I have noticed that most of the scenarios Ive played have been mostly unbalanced and badly designed,"

If you have a problem with scenarios, that is fine, and I would strongly reccomend going to the CM Scenario Depot and using the REVIEW THIS SCENARIO link for the scenarios you have played. It really does help designers look at their scenarios in other ways if done in a constructive and fair manner.

Personally, I have only played a handful of scenarios and I would not feel so free to make blanket comments like that. And I wonder just how many scenarios one person can play, paying enough attention to give a fair review, in the short span of ONE week.

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V Senior Member

V

Posted
Posted
Originally posted by Achtung Stef:

Im back to deal with you angry angry people, to quote some scenarios that I thought were badly designed

1:- Message from goetz, I went germans And retreated to the ridge line by turn 10, I was expecting a good bloody fight but the russians had not got close enough to engage me in any way by the end of the battle, to me thats either bad AI or scenario design.

2:- Maxdorf, me and my dear friend were partaking in this scenario, my friend went the soviets and yours truly went the germans, from the amount of german equipment in this scenario my friend commented that the scenario was impossible to win from the soviets point of view, the crack king tiger could easily destroy the T-34s from distance and the troops in halftracks could easily overcome the defenders of the village, thats not much fun is it.

Also I have noticed that some of the scenarios have only one way to win, where the tactical thinking in that, I will return to quote some scenarios shorlty, Ill BE BACK.

BTW, in the future you might want to think of using SPOILER ALERTs to warn other gamers that you give sensitive information about a scenario which they may want to play eventually with a clean slate.
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