Russian infantry attacking - realism or a joke?

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Psyched:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Moon:

Here's a hint: play slower.

Think about it.

Martin

Hmmm. Does this mean be more careful and deliberate on the attack, or that Russian troops have less tendency to break if they are moving slower?

It appears to me that fast commands (i.e., Human Wave and Assault) actually raise morale and make breaking less likely.

Or does morale of a unit have nothing to do with that unit's tendency to be pinned by fire?

Boy, someone smarter than me needs to figure out this game! </font>

[zukkov]

Originally posted by Moon:

That's the other thing in CMBB... you gotta use Area Fire a lot more

Martin

m-o-o-n, that spells correct! after 5 or 6 turns of futility trying to get my infantry to move forward, and seeing nothing but inf sounds, not to mention losing 2 of my t34s to those "door knockers"(i assume that's what they were anyway), i was scratching my head wondering how the hell i was gonna ever get those kp rejects to ever go anywhere. then it dawned on me. open up with every thing i have with area fire. move only a few plattoons at a time while every body else lays down supressive fire. it worked. low and behold, some of the guys actually started moving forward. then i started spotting real germans and was able to begin getting them to rout away. i'm still in the game on turn 15, and it's far from over. the germans are tough and continue firing back(defending themselves, the cowards!), but at least now there's hope...

[GriffinCheng+]

I have not tried HW yet so it sounds like a solid advice I would try. However, I have concerns if such "tactics" could be abused by Allied/Soviet players. Any thoughts?

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The problem with "door knocker" against T34 is the troops get paniked and bailed out after slight penetration occurs. One of the tanks lost all the turret crews and the remaining stayed for 2 turns before bailing out. I have no numbers here but I think turret penetrations were possible.

I would say it really depends on how much luck you have. On the first try, I unload all my 50mm mortars plus I have 2 Maxims firing ft2t at that PaK, it still managed to get all my T34s. After the game, I looked at the unit and see they lost only 1 man. Go figure.

[ September 02, 2002, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: GriffinCheng+ ]

[Shosties]

OK... Here are the tips for the Russian attack: Play slow, don't bunch up, use suppressive fire (mortars, tanks, and MGs).

Check, check, and check.

I'm still pinned down mid-way in Yelnia Stare on turn 14.

*Six* T-34s won't even get a single German squad or MG team to put their heads down. Fire of all units is virtually ineffective, and no matter how much trouble a German squad makes, it never become more than a sound contact. What gives?

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Shosties4th:

[...]and no matter how much trouble a German squad makes, it never become more than a sound contact. What gives?

Place good-quality units with binoculars up front, like the higher headquarters.

[sturner]

Ok, guys, remember that the Soviets made an eleventh prinicple of war. Anhilation. They made their best break-throughs and victories using that principle.

When you can't outfight them, bury them with material.

[imported_argie]

Originally posted by Shosties4th:

OK... Here are the tips for the Russian attack: Play slow, don't bunch up, use suppressive fire (mortars, tanks, and MGs).

Check, check, and check.

I'm still pinned down mid-way in Yelnia Stare on turn 14.

*Six* T-34s won't even get a single German squad or MG team to put their heads down. Fire of all units is virtually ineffective, and no matter how much trouble a German squad makes, it never become more than a sound contact. What gives?

Patience.

If you are mid-way in the attack in turn 14, you are doing it better than you think.

[Shosties]

Originally posted by redwolf:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Shosties4th:

[...]and no matter how much trouble a German squad makes, it never become more than a sound contact. What gives?

Place good-quality units with binoculars up front, like the higher headquarters.</font>

[Shosties]

Originally posted by argie:

Patience.

If you are mid-way in the attack in turn 14, you are doing it better than you think.

My style of play *is* methodical, I'm not a rusher by temperament. I can sense though time is going to start being a limiting factor here. I am about half way to only my *inital objectives* (wood flags on the sides). And it turns out the Germans saved their mortars so when I sent some of my own forward from their initial setup positions finally, they got wasted (kiss three tubes goodbye). How the hell are they spotting so well this deep into my rear? I've had a grand total of two enemy units become something other than sound contacts.

[ September 03, 2002, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: Shosties4th ]

[pad152]

I found that micomanagement, is the key, move up two squad (advance to contact)then keep the two shooting, while I move up the next two squads. I found they if I didn't give specific target (shoot orders) to each squad they hardly ever fired on their own.

Using this method I'v won all of the battles with the Russians.

[Fishu]

lol Ligur,

I've seen that happen in Citadel when I played as russians.

At one point I began advancing with KV-1S for shoot&scoot (actually, I wanted hulldown, but it reminded more of shoot&scoot.. as soon as it got into position, it reversed).

On the right side of the tank was gun crew advancing along with the tank.

That gun crew was routed.

They walked right into the fire of 3 tanks and kept routing towards them

Real heros of the soviet union!

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Shosties4th:

Originally posted by redwolf:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Place good-quality units with binoculars up front, like the higher headquarters.

I've never known you to be flipant, redwolf, so I take it you're actually serious in suggesting this.</font>

[Guest PondScum]

Originally posted by OGSF:

Two companies routed within 10 yards of the tree line by four misc. "infantry sounds". So the tanks don't even get an ID to shoot at although they were right behind the infantry.

That's because of my SUPERIOR PLAY, damn your outerboard eyes.

Also, you had two unspotted MG34's raking you from the flank the whole time, which probably helped just a TAD

[Lindan]

Originally posted by Ligur:

[...]

About infantry in general: try using "fast" or "withdraw" to pull your troops out of position when they are going to be overrun or receive withering fire... They will DIE. [...]

TRY advance to retreat your troops (I know this sounds funny..). I used this successfully many times, as they are a lot less exposed compared to running/withdrawing.

[Andreas]

Another thing to remember (haven't seen it mentioned here) is that units that have not moved are considered to have a camouflage bonus, which could explain why you have trouble making out the Germans in the woods.

[Shosties]

Sleep is a wonderful thing. I was getting rather cranky if that wasn't obvious!

The key to advancing is actually getting hard visual contacts on the enemy. Area fire by anything other than mortars could very well be just one big waste of ammo (this goes for the Germans in Citadel Schwerpunkt as well).

So.... the masses get held back until you are able to pour down EFFECTIVE fire on the defensive positions with Maxims and T-34s. OK, but how do you fashion and wield the first wave? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[Danzig]

Has anyone else besides me tried using smoke to cover the advance? I tried smoking the trees in the center and right side of the map, then advance on the left flank with about 1/2 my infantry. In turn 13 now and it looks like it's working pretty good so far. The smoke cover also allowed me to advance my T34s and my support guys into better covering positions.

Anyone else try this?

[edit] By smoke I mean using the FO's advance artillery fire as a smoke screen.

[ September 03, 2002, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Danzig ]

[James]

The infantry Tac AI is excellent, realistic, believeable. A vast improvement over CMBO's suicidal infantry.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Danzig:

Has anyone else besides me tried using smoke to cover the advance? [snips]

Anyone else try this?

Yup. My first go as the Sovs (having previously played and won narrowly as the Germans) against the AI went something like this:

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I tried a free deployment for the Sovs. Maxim dets were evenly-spaced along the front, and the three rifle companies concentrated on the left flank in column of blunt wedges ("Left deviationism, a juvenile disorder", but concentrating on one flank worked for Epaminondas). I had the least-experienced company leading, so the new comrades could get the experience of being shot over, and the most experienced bringing up the rear.

The tanks I trundled forward into close contact on their own to deal death to the fascists in accordance with the resolutions of the 21st all-Union deputies' congress.

The God Of War placed smoke so as to try to isolate the left-flank third of the battlefield from fire from the central and right-flank positions.

The smoke did not seem to do me a great deal of good. The leading company went to ground almost immediately, and the second wave made little more progress. Isolated sections filtered forward into cover progressively closer to the enemy, but strength was building only slowly in the forward locations. The whole feel of feeding infantry forward, rallying those gone to ground and feeding them forward again, and slowly accumulating firefighting strength closer to the enemy gave me a very strong impression of Chinese tactics in Korea as described by S L A Marshall. Not, I suspect, an inappropriate similarity.

The tanks were the real battle-winners; one was lost to a door-knocker and one to a tank-killing team, but they took protected firepower forward, and as well as applying their own firepower effectively they scared up targets that could be malleted by Maxim and 50mm mortar fire. Even so, what appeared to me as the controlling player to be the most effective way of using my armour could, I can easily see, be interpreted as poor combined-arms co-ordination when seen from the other side. The picture of Soviet tanks operating on their own and remaining halted for long periods called to mind German descriptions of their early-war battlefield behaviour.

I had the third company up and human-waving forward after the smoke stopped, an intrepid junior lieutentant and a rifle section had got into the left-flank German position and taken the first prisoner, and forward strength of effective sections was building nicely, although command arrangements were all to cock, platoons from the first two companies were scattered all over the place and people were following the nearest leader as company and battalion commanders moved forward to sweep up the stragglers. Then the Germans surrendered. I don't recall the exact score, but apart from the two tanks lost I had IIRC lost 61 casualties, a good deal less than the defenders' loss.

I have to wonder whether at least as convincing a victory could not have been achieved without the participation of the rifle companies at all, except for their mortars (half-a-dozen mortars hiding in the same patch of bush with the battalion commander proved to be an effective means of dealing with individual foxholes as they were unmasked). "L'artillerie detruit, l'infanterie occupe", but with tanks and Maxims fulfilling part of the artillery role. I might give that a go next.

All the best,

John.

[PeterX]

MCH posted:

Just pay alot of attention to the experience and state of the unit-Don't expect conscripts to do a man's job! Just like in CMBO, the less-experienced units need alot of TLC..Plan around the realistic capabilities of the units, and you'll have no problem,heck..you might even get some new ideas..I was experimenting with operation:get behind the conscripts! worked pretty well.

I recall in the Read Me file that Soviet units are actually one grade lower in capability than their German equivalents until January, 1944. So,in the Yelnia scenario, you're commanding SUB-conscripts.

[Claymore]

I think that most of you'all will find that the TacAI is no better in infantry tactics than before. The dominant factor for me is the allocation of firepower resources. This in turn is dominated by TacAI path finding algorithms. Comparison between CMBO and CMBB reveals that the computer chooses much the same paths. The TacAI seems to alway reinforce defeat...it will stick with a chosen route and feed its troops into the meatgrinder until eventual defeat. While we have not seen the Heer in the attack, I expect the same behavior there. To paraphrase somebody from the past "It is the Quantity of the Russian forces which will have a percieved Qualitative effect on the CM TacAI".

Humans however are devious bastages and given the greatly improved set of tactical orders, will prove to be very frustrating. In my view those CMBO players who were wizards with infantry and artillery will dominate the CMBB ladders.

[Chad Harrison]

To answer the original question, I would definatly saw that in 1941, the level of Russian combat ability, especially on the attack, is modelled perfectly. It is one full strength battalion with tank support against one depleted german company with AT guns and MG's. IIRC, it takes about 3 times the strength of the defender to have a successfull offensive. I played it for the first time and was able to squeek by with a victory, and it feeled right to me.

I think that once we get a chance to play as the Russians attacking in 1944, we will get a better idea of why the Germans lost. Before that point, it was just beating them back with massed infantry and tanks.

Chad Harrison

[killmore]

I never had a problem with this scenario - got Total Victory on first try...

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I put my MGs and Mortars in positions to cover the front. Never moved them forward.

Kept moving T-34 close together forward couple of hundred meters first turn, after that kept them in place as long as they had target. Then moved them forward slowly about 20 meters or less...

I lost only 1 tank commander, tank paniced but return to action on turn 15.

My infantry spent 10 turns panicing (except MGs/Mortars) on the ground. I wanted to execute them myself! When T-34s reduced german defences (by turn 15) I was advancing forward.

Overall my losses were relatively light...

[Wreck]

(spoilers)

My first go at it, I did pretty much what John Salt did. Smoke on the left, with most of my infantry over there. I led with the most experienced infantry, not the least. The battalion commander with his +2 combat had command of the mortars, set up in one big group in the woods on the far right, with maxims spread across the front. The tanks were clustered into two concentrated groups of three, more or less in the center.

I laid smoke on the center-left with the arty, and moved forward all the men I could ASAP. The regulars did all right, but few of the greens and none of the conscripts made it more than a few meters. I had company commanders there helping to kick butts to get men forward; it is very helpful to form a sort of bucket brigade of higher HQs so that squads are in a command radius, preferably with +morale, at all times as they work their way forward. You do end up going *very* slowly with the average squad, which seems to me much more like how I have read about combat being than how CMBO works.

Meanwhile the tanks gradually moved forward. I did not know how many AT guns were there, but expected more than there were. When the guns exposed themselves they were taken out fairly quickly by my mortars and the tanks, which kept together.

By midgame I had managed to get men into the scattered woods (IIRC) on the left, nearing the woods and tall pines where the left side of the German position was. Having exposed no AT guns for a while, I moved the tanks up close and advanced in the gully on the far left, eventually sweeping into the German position. This proved decisive as a platoon or so was flushed and crushed, mostly by tank fire.

On the right I had only a green platoon which was moving forward. But each move seemed to serve to expose another foxhole or two, which would then be routed by machinegun and mortar fire.

The Germans surrendered in turn 25, as I rushed masses of men into the center woods from the left and the German casualties went critical. It ended 88-12.

[Claymore]

Just my point (Wreck and Killmore), the same tactics that you used in CMBO were more than sufficient in CMBB. The TacAI isn't any more capable.

A human opponent in the attack role will be very different however since the tactical order set has been improved far more than those for the defence IMO.