Some MG Questions

[Col Deadmarsh]

(1) Is the American MMG, a 30 caliber gun?

(2) What is the caliber of the British Vickers mg?

(3) Is a forward mg the same as a bow mg?

[Vanir Ausf B]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

(1) Is the American MMG, a 30 caliber gun?

(2) What is the caliber of the British Vickers mg?

(3) Is a forward mg the same as a bow mg?<hr></blockquote>

1. Yes.

2. 30 cal.

3. Not sure. What vehicles are you refering to?

[Michael Dorosh]

Vickers is NOT .30 calibre, it is .303 British. There were also .50 calibre versions.

[Cromwell.]

I think the Vickers is more likely to be 0.303".

[offtaskagain]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

(1) Is the American MMG, a 30 caliber gun?

(2) What is the caliber of the British Vickers mg?

(3) Is a forward mg the same as a bow mg?<hr></blockquote>

In addition to Vanir's answers, I have a few distinctions to make. The bullet used by the American .30 cal and the Vickers is the same diameter, .3 inches, however they could be of different length. The correct designation of the round fired by the American gun is .30-'06, or .30 calibre, 1906 because it was created for use the M1906 Springfield rifle in 1906. The Vickers uses the .303 round, which has a smaller casing and therefore has a lower MV. The difference is insignificant when the target is human sized though. It only matters when hunting elk or moose.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Well, yes, the Vickers is .303 instead of .308, but the difference is so small I tend to think of them as both 30 cal.

[ 01-06-2002: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]</p>

[Col Deadmarsh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

3. Not sure. What vehicles are you refering to?<hr></blockquote>

For instance, the 250/1 and the 251/16. They both have forward mg's. Are these on the front hull, the same as the bow mg's on other vehicles and do they differ in any way?

Regarding the Vickers mg, if the caliber of the round is about the same as the American 30 cal, why does it have a higher firepower rating? Can this be attributed to more rounds per second or is it a higher muzzle velocity?

[ 01-06-2002: Message edited by: Colonel_Deadmarsh ]</p>

[Vanir Ausf B]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

For instance, the 250/1 and the 251/16. They both have forward mg's. Are these on the front hull, the same as the bow mg's on other vehicles and do they differ in any way?

Regarding the Vickers mg, if the caliber of the round is about the same as the American 30 cal, why does it have a higher firepower rating? Can this be attributed to more rounds per minute or is it a higher muzzle velocity?<hr></blockquote>

I'm not an expert one this, but the MGs appear to be mounted on top of the hull, not in it. So no, it's not the same as a bow MG in a tank. I think it is called a "forward" MG in the game because they can only fire at targets in front of the vehicle or close to it. So in that way it is similar in function to a hull MG. If anyone else knows different...

The Vickers has a higher FP rating because it is water cooled, allowing it to fire longer without overheating. It may also have something to do with the crew having more ammo to burn than the M1919.

Interestingly, according to several reloading handbooks I have, the British .303 round is actually .311" in diameter.

[ 01-06-2002: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]</p>

[Andrew H.]

If a halftrack were a pickup truck, the forward MG would be mounted on the roof of the cab (at the back), and you would fire it by standing up in the bed of the truck, behind the cab, looking forward.

There's no way for the driver or front seat passenger to fire it; there has to be someone in the back.

[Redwolf]

"forward" and "flex" MGs are both on top of the vehicle, however, the "forward" is the one with a shield to the front, and can fire only -well- forward, while the flex MG can fire anywhere.

IIRC, "forward" MGs can fire buttoned.

I am not sure whether "forward" MGs fire on aircraft, flex do.

The most prominent example of forward MG is the StuG III (not late).

[acrashb]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

Well, yes, the Vickers is .303 instead of .308, but the difference is so small I tend to think of them as both 30 cal.

[ 01-06-2002: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]<hr></blockquote>

The .303 British bullet is .311 in diameter; the .308 Winchester (T65E3, aka 7.62 NATO) is .308 in diameter; the 30-06 Springfield is .308 in diameter. Basically all .300", but there are several ways to measure a cartridge, and marketing plays a factor.

[SGT_Gold]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:

In addition to Vanir's answers, I have a few distinctions to make. The bullet used by the American .30 cal and the Vickers is the same diameter, .3 inches, however they could be of different length. The correct designation of the round fired by the American gun is .30-'06, or .30 calibre, 1906 because it was created for use the M1906 Springfield rifle in 1906. The Vickers uses the .303 round, which has a smaller casing and therefore has a lower MV. The difference is insignificant when the target is human sized though. It only matters when hunting elk or moose.<hr></blockquote>

First of all, the American rifle is known as the 1903 Springfield for a good reason. It was adopted for service in 1906, not 1906. There is no 1906 rifle in the US inventory. The casing size between the US and UK rounds isn't large, and one would have to know what kind of powder and bullet was being used in order to determine which rould was more powerful.

[SGT_Gold]

I ment 1903, 1903 darn it!

[Vanir Ausf B]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by aaronb:

The .303 British bullet is .311 in diameter;<hr></blockquote>

Yeah, I said that earlier. What I'm currious about is how it became known as the .303 in the first place. Wouldn't marketing tend to exaggerate caliber instead of understate it? Was it originally .303 and then refined to .311 but kept the name?

[Ogadai]

You don't think it might be the calibre of the round as it exits the muzzle? It might start at .311in but it is more than likely .303in after its been down the bore.

[Chosun-few]

The standard Vickers round was the .303 Mark VIII.Z (whatever that was)It could also fire a "heavy" round, this increased the muzzle velocity and range. It had 2 effects, first it made the vickers into an ersatz artillery piece and it could fire "over the hill" secondly it burnt the barrel out in fairly short order. I think this round was a MK16 but not sure.

Also my manual states that the Browning had 3 sighting options =-

1, 0-2600 for.06 or M.2. ammo

2, 0-3400 for M.1. ammo

3, 0-2800

Not sure what this means but may explain the different muzzle velocity figures in this post.

[edward_n_kelly]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ogadai:

You don't think it might be the calibre of the round as it exits the muzzle? It might start at .311in but it is more than likely .303in after its been down the bore.<hr></blockquote>

Actually I think you will find that the appellation ".303 inch" is the measurement of the diameter of the bore between the "lands" (the raised ridges between the groves). Similar means of measurement were used for the .300 calibre weapons.

Thus the bullet diameter can in fact exceed this for purposes of sealing.

[Col Deadmarsh]

Good lord, I've entered grog hell...

[xerxes]

I want a .50 caliber vickers! Was there really such a thing?

-marc

[Kingfish]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

Good lord, I've entered grog hell...<hr></blockquote>

This is grog purgatory. True hell is when JasonC and Rexford show up.

[Brian]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by xerxes:

I want a .50 caliber vickers! Was there really such a thing?

-marc<hr></blockquote>

Yes. It was fitted primarily to ships on 4 or 8 gun mountings and to the Vickers series of light tanks used early in the war. However, because of the round utilised (not the same as the US .50 cal) it wasn't anywhere as reliable as the .303in variant. It was largely replaced by a weapon which was only marginally better, the 15mm BESA, which was used in the Light Tank Mk.VII and the Guy/Humber Armoured Cars.

Its interesting that in both cases, scaling an extremely reliable weapon up to a larger calibre did not transfer the reliability of the weapon but rather created a whole raft of other problems, associated usually with feeds and so on.

[Redwolf]

What I really want are on-board Ships driving down CMBO rivers, with direct-fire 14" guns and those 8-way .50cal Vickers :cool:

[Splash]

The Stuart has three MG's bow, coaxial and flexible isn't it? How are these arranged and how are they coordinated?

[Ogadai]

Redwolf, I'd just like to see landing craft and gliders included in the game.

Splash, the original M3 Stuart had 3 MG's, one controlled by the co-driver/radio operator and two in the hull sponsons, firing forwards which were controlled by the driver. These were, for the most part, by the British dispensed with in favour of extra stowage.

The idea of the fixed MG fired by the driver also surfaced in the M4 Sherman, with 2 x .30cal fixed in the bow plate, between the driver and the co-driver, controlled by the driver.

Interestingly, the idea didn't die in the early years of WWII, the Soviets also had fixed MG's in the first versions of the T54. They discovered like the US and British armies, that the driver has his hands more than full enough driving his tank, so he won't be too interested in trying to aim an MG as well (which would require the whole vehicle to be jerked around, which I'm sure wouldn't have endeared him to the gunner )

[Abn_Ranger87]

T-55 series (which developed from the T-54) also had a fixed 7.62mm MG mounted in the bow at waist level. Driver simply pulled a lanyard connected to the trigger mechanism. Possibly the idea was to provide grazing fire during the attack, my own opinion was that it was to make the driver feel better by giving him an outlet for his stress...