European manual query

[Fred]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

That is not on target. The US version is different than the Euro version not because BFC "Likes America better" but because they don't have QUITE the same concerns as CDV (copy protection, box size, Nazi laws).

That said, I agree that Americans (myself included) would be just as outraged if our "perfect" product were thus tampered with.

Wise words, I appreciate it.

Fred

[Fred]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Fred:

The so-called 'much larger audience' is the twitch-crowd, formerly shunned by BF, but now, as BF turns away from wargamers to more casual gamers, are more important than those people that supported them right from the start.

Fred

I am sorry, but this is just ridiculous. It is so ridiculous that I will not even bother outlining a shred of evidence against this claim. You should listen to yourself.

Battlefront turns away from the wargamers. What next? Stoiber joins the Green Party?</font>

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

It's simple:

1) If you don't like what is offered, don't buy the game.

2) If you still want the game, but do not like what is offered in your area, get and American chum to buy it direct from battlefront and ship it to you.

I understand peoples upset over the CDV version of the game. That is why I ordered for three fellow CMers in Europe. But crying about it dosen't change much. BF.C said they will work on resoving the manual issue. If you don't like German law, write to the German government and chew them out for not being able to have swasticas and SS runes in your CM. Gawd, I think some people just like to bitch no matter what they have! I admit, I would be upset if roles were reversed, but then I wouldn't complain. I would get someone to order direct for me, and be happy BF.C is willing to try and work out the manual issue for those that can't/won't order through someone in the US. The grass is always greener eh? Sheesh.

[Captain Wacky]

Andreas is right, your idea that BTS is sitting around a table laughing about how they screwed their European customers is ludicrous and totally unfounded.

[Apache]

I think the fact pure and simple is that many Europeans loyal to BTS feel they are getting a raw deal. Some like manuals etc., some don't. Those who do not get hung up on this issue will no doubt get hung up on other things in life that others wouldn't give two hoots about (even CM related such as why doesn't it model this, or why does my X do that). That's what makes people different and just beacuse some disagree it doesn't make those who do feel aggrieved wrong. It is also no cause to post patronising or sarcastic comments. It shouldn't degenerate into an inter-continental slanging match. Those that aren't bothered by it fine. Enjoy. However, they can post as many times as they like to the thread but it will not appease those who DO feel disgruntled.

This needs sorting out and hopefully BTS will come up with a solution. It is to their credit that they will try. It is quite apparent though that it has a number of people in and out of the forum well racked off. The danger is that most of those people are committed long time supporters of BTS, the genre and CM.

[Battlefront.com]

barrold713 wrote:

Additionally, even at this point, at the risk of going over well-trod ground about CDV, the question that must be asked, "Is BFC doing the best they can given the circumstances?" A cursory analysis certainly gives them the benefit of the doubt. Ideally, I am sure they would like to make everyone happy, but with this group I don't think it is possible.

Correct. The best we can do is balance the needs of the whole and come up with the best solution that makes the largest number of people happy as possible.

General address to Europeans reading this thread...

Like it or not, Battlefront.com is a business. Businesses are run with one founding principle above all others -> to maximize financial return for investment of time, energy, and other expenses. While Battlefront prides itself on being a far more caring and responsive company, we are not utter fools. If any of you "2nd class Europeans" were in our shoes, I doubt you would reverse our decisions. In fact, I bet you wouldn't even care half as much as we do about customer relations.

The simple fact is that the deal with CDV provides two fundamental positives:

1. Tens of thousands of additional customers who otherwise either wouldn't know about or purchase online Battlefront.com products (*not* just CM!!)

2. Additional revenue from these new customers which allow us to make even better games going into the future.

There has been a lot of complaining and even more whining, but the facts above are not subject to challenge. Those who think that a couple of ASCII characters are more important than the above are, in no small way, being COMPLETELY unreasonable. Tell you what, give us a couple hundred thousand dollars and we will change the text to whatever you want it to be. Don't feel like giving up that kind of money for something so utterly trivial? Gee... neither do we, so saying we should is very hypocritical.

OK, so customers can't buy from us directly. Sure, we would love to still allow this, but it is absolutely not something that can be done without losing the two above mentioned benefits. When you order products from other developers, do you generally have the ability to purchase from them directly? No? Well, perhaps that is because it isn't done that way. But if someone wants to pay us a couple hundred thousand bucks and we will let you order from us directly. Don't feel like giving up that kind of money for something that in the end doesn't really matter? Gee... neither do we, so saying we should is very hypocritical.

That leaves us with the manual. The manual in the CDV version is not what we wanted to see. However, retail establishments in Europe demand that product be shipped in DVD boxes. From what we understand, this is soon to happen in the US as well. The best we could do was have CDV ship CMBB in the larger DVD box with the maximum sized printed manual possible. For our own version we still use a fully printed manual, but that is only because we do not have to deal with retail. Our choices here aren't very good since the only alternative is to scuttle the deal with CDV. If someone wants to pay us a couple of hundred thousand dollars, we would consider doing this. Don't feel like giving up that kind of money for something that, while important, is not essential to the enjoyment of the game? Gee... neither do we, so saying we should is very hypocritical.

So there you have it. We are a business and have made a valid business decision. We should not have to sit here and justify this to anybody, but we do because we do feel that if you are going to complain you should at least know how reasonable the complaints are/aren't.

Perhaps we won't need to partner with anybody in Europe in the future, but until we feel that we can sell into Europe as well as CDV (at least in terms of revenue) we will continue our relationship with them. If that makes Europeans feel like second class citizens, we are sorry for that but there is nothing we can do about it. Well, nothing that wouldn't hurt our business and the future of the products we offer. So I ask you... take a step back from your selfish (and I mean that in the literal sense, not judgemental way) wants and take at look at Battlefront's legitimate needs. If you can argue why your wants outweigh our needs, then we might reconsider. But if all we here is "I want this, I want that" well... I think you can guess how much chance there is of things being changed.

Steve

[ September 20, 2002, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[Agua]

Originally posted by Apache:

I think the fact pure and simple is that many Europeans loyal to BTS feel they are getting a raw deal.

That's it in a nutshell. Every one of these fellows continuing on about it in this thread are getting a US copy through me. So the actual copy they get is not the point with them. I think it is making them feel unappreciated and their feelings are hurt.

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Originally posted by Apache:

The danger is that most of those people are committed long time supporters of BTS, the genre and CM.

Yeah, but Apache, these people at BF.C aren't anybodys parents here. No one is related to them through blood, and has to see them at family functions. No one here owns 33% of BTS or BF.C. and so is worried about an investment. "Long time supporters" (me included, bought CM in the first 2 months of release) owe no more to them than they us. The only thing owed is $45 bucks in exchange for a game. If BF.C tomorrow said they were gonna produce low quailty twich games insted of CM, I'd just move on to something else, not whine how I was screwed. I got what I wanted out of the deal and so did they. They got their money, I got my game. People upset about how they are getting the shaft is laughable. I looked forward too, and then hated the film Pearl Harbor. I didn't walk out of the theater going: "Bruckheimer SCREWED me!!" I just noted to myself that I would not watch much of what he offered in the future. It's the same here, except Bruckheimer isn't doing anything to change his movie to what I thought I desirved to see.

[Apache]

That is a choice YOU have. In any event, I can;t be asked to debate your post. END.

BTW, BTS is this the work around that's going to make everyone happy? Just want to be sure on this

[Barrold]

Fred, it might be a language problem, but I don't believe I was calling you names.

I think your wrong, but that is your right I suppose.

Your argument about how U.S. customers would react wrong on a couple different points.

First, if I were to order from a European publisher, I would do so with the knowledge that I would have to either have to accept the conditions in which it is supplied or accept a proffered solution.

Second, you are essentially requesting an impossibility to be absolved. Asking the publisher to violate their home countries laws or break a contract with their distributer are not viable options regardless of the tone of your complaint.

CDV may not be your best solution, but for BFC it was and the larger market does not necessarily mean twitchers but the audience of gamers who are not reached by an online only distributer. The game is still only going to appeal to those who like this sort of thing based on word of mouth, reviews, or advertising and the box.

Besides, didn't you already arrange to get a copy of the U.S. version? Problem solved. This leads me to think that your enjoying the process of complaining a bit too much.

BDH

[Battlefront.com]

Feldgendarm

Second: If the CDV version of CMBB is soooo wonderful as "officially" claimed ... why is there still an American version?

The CDV version *is* wonderful because the game and documentation is EXACTLY THE SAME. I don't know about you, but I buy games for the game, not for some bound pieces of paper or a couple extra ASCII characters.

There is still an American version for a very simple reason... we make ours, CDV makes theirs. Neither of us have anything to do with the production of each other's products. Because we do not have to deal with retail we have more flexibility than CDV does, and that is why they are different. You forget that CDV's last release, CMBO, was with a full printed manual. CDV did not change their standards, retail did. Argue as much as you like, but the facts will not change.

Why does BFC not make the game according to CDV-standards right from the beginning? What is good enough for us Europeans should also be good enough for the Americans.

This is a very selfish point of view. We make what we make because we can, not because there is some mythical standard that we must be held to. And we only found out about the change over to PDF very recently, we argued against it, and found the facts were not arguable.

So I demand this: Americans should also get a minimized manual, political correct textures and unit names and a copy-protected CD. And everybody will be happy, because the CDV-style version is fantastic and all are treated equal.

I demand that our customers keep things in perspective, but like so many things in the real world... one does not always get what he wishes for...

Fred,

The so-called 'much larger audience' is the twitch-crowd, formerly shunned by BF, but now, as BF turns away from wargamers to more casual gamers, are more important than those people that supported them right from the start.

You may call Andreas a fanboy if you like, but that does not change the fact that your comments crossed the line between simple complaining (or whining) to INSULTING us. You really think that we are selling out? Fine, don't buy any of our products and leave us alone. That is your choice here since we will not change our relationship with CDV because a handful of people simply do not like it. And that is what this is all about... us trying to please about 1/10,000th of our European customer fan base without throwing away thee other 9,999/10,000 other customers.

Also, if any of you think that wargaming should just be kept to people that have $1000s of dollars of military history books, we strongly disagree. Wargaming was once much more accepted and widespread. But it didn't keep up with the times and theerefore died off. If we can help reestablish ties with customers who SHOULD be wargamers, but currently aren't, then we have done a lot for the wargaming community. As a matter of fact, this is our highest goal. Keeping hardcore wargamers "happy" (they always complain though ) is easy; getting new people to like wargaming is a huge challenge. And as long as we don't compromise the game, why should anybody object unless they want to keep wargaming a closed off hobby?

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Augua,

I think it is making them feel unappreciated and their feelings are hurt.

Oddly enough, you said this about Europeans, but I can just as easily think of this in relation to us (Battlefront). We have knocked ourselves out for 5 years to make the best wargames out there, now we are being insulted and dumpped on WELL outside the perspective of what is really happening.

Just remember folks, this is a two way street.

Steve

[ September 20, 2002, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[Fred]

Originally posted by Agua:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Apache:

I think the fact pure and simple is that many Europeans loyal to BTS feel they are getting a raw deal.

That's it in a nutshell. Every one of these fellows continuing on about it in this thread are getting a US copy through me. So the actual copy they get is not the point with them. I think it is making them feel unappreciated and their feelings are hurt.</font>

[Barrold]

I got quoted by Steve!!!

...and it wasn't to get mashed so this makes up for the empty except for bills and junk mailbox this afternoon. Naturally I agree with everything he wrote.

BDH

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Originally posted by Apache:

That is a choice YOU have. In any event, I can;t be asked to debate your post. END.

BTW, BTS is this the work around that's going to make everyone happy? Just want to be sure on this

Everyone has a choice Apache, even you. BF.C is not holding a gun to your head and saying: "By this now, and do it through CDV or we'll kill you!"

I do understand your guys' upset though. I would feel the same way, I just think everyone handels their emotions on this game a little to intensely. I understand, I love it too. But it's just a game, just a lousey $45. Relax, the sun will still be there in the morning, your heart will still be pumping, and the earth will still be spinning. That's what I am trying to say.

[Apache]

Hang on, Hang on. Any chance we can put the ICBMs away here. I think the latest posts from BTS are a little patronising to say the least. As quite often happens before threads are locked up:

"Can those that want to make this into a personal and vitriolic abuse session continue by e-mail, off the forum?"

The point I made Vader (& this ain't a personal dig) is that you had the choice, see the film or not. Those that do want the manual in Europe, and I supsect there are a few, have none. They are asking if there is a way round it. Negotiation?

I have made my choice and sorted it with the kind help of Agua. Others unable to order through a US member will not be so fortunate. Tough it may be, but, if there is a solution they MAY like to hear it. Is that whining? BTS then suggested they were working on something that would hopefully suit the laterly referred to 'whiners' happy. If that ain't the intention don't post it.

Someone at BTS hide the testosterone pills will ya. Why hose down everyone on the thread? Sorry about this but IMHO that was completely out of order and uncalled for.

[ September 20, 2002, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Slippery_Pete]

Does anyone else think the whining and pouting in this thread is pathetic?

Judias priest. If it's such an issue, print out the damn PDF and move on. Make your own manuel. Do you want to put it on your bookshelf for show or something?

Slippery.

[Battlefront.com]

Fred,

We will get our original version; it's the way that e.g. Steve thinks he can handle us.

Obviously he never attended to business school.

No. Instead of reading about other people doing great things, I went out and did great things on my own. How about you?

NEVER tell a customer that he is a 'whiner'.

Customer is king. Period.

Wrong. A whiner is a whiner, Period. A customer, at least a valued one, is someone who understands that his value is related to his single purchase. Nothing more. Trying to get us, a small company, to do the bidding of a single voice is selfish. Trying to hit us over the head with it time and time again, and insulting us in the process, is whining.

We like customer feedback, positive AND negative. What we do not like at all is whining, unreasonable demands, and insults. Such customers are NOT WORTH THE PROFIT WE RECEIVE FROM THEIR PURCHASE and we would be MORE than happy to have them go away and never purchase from us ever again.

That what I've learned at business school.

Business school has very little to do with business reality.

Handling complaining customers is even more difficult, but telling them that they are nuts is NOT what I've learned.

Apparently business school did not teach you that pandering/lying to unreasonable customers only makes the problem worse. Telling them the truth makes things better, EVEN WHEN they do not want to hear it. That is what I learned from actually being in business. Perhaps I should teach at your business school, because apparently there are gaps in what they teach their students.

That TEN THOUSANDS of the twitch crowd now buys CMBB is fine, but what?

And you think calling anybody who buys CM from CDV is a twitch customer is MORE accurate than us calling certain customers here on this Forum whiners? I put it to you that it is more accurate for me to lable people here whiners than it is to call all CDV customers twitch gamers.

And, as Steves likes to repeat like a Mantra, its not about the ASCII characters (that are encrypted in the EXE file) but I do not like censorship in any way; be it some ASCII or the burning of books.

I like the right of free speech and, out of principle, I will not pay for the opposite.

What a bunch of crap. You are German, correct? You live in Germany, correct? You do understand that it is the German laws and software distributers that caused this change, right? So how nice of you to be so preachy about your values when you live in the country that forced us Americans to change things. Don't target us because we are easier to yell at. It is YOUR government that caused this problem, NOT us.

Steve thinks he is a Demigod; well, he is not...whatever some fanboys told him.

I don't think I am a Demigod, just someone who has busted his ass for 5 years to make the best games out there, even when everybody in the industry said I was stupid. However, I do think that some of our customers think of themselves as Demigods.

And I liked him much better in the good ole days, when he listened and not just defended his pov.

The only thing that has changed about my prsentation is my tollerence for unreasonable customers. Other than that, I have not changed at all.

Fred, I ask you this... have I listened to the complaints? Yes or no (ja oder nein?). A simple answer is all I request. Have I made it clear that we do not like the changes that were required of us? Another simple ja oder nein is all that I want to hear. Now, have I also explained the business perspective (which you apparently should grasp, since you went to business school) and the REAL impact to the game? Again, ja oder nein is what I am looking for. If you answered ja to these questions, then it is clear that I DO listen.

Now... if you think "listening" equals me bending over kissing a customer's butt and doing WHATEVER he asks of me... well, I am proud to say that I don't listen to customers.

Steve

[Feldgendarm]

Originally posted by Slippery_Pete:

Make your own manuel.

Great idea. I will make a Manuel. And also a Julio, a Pedro and a Hernando

[arzi]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

CDV has to offer there games in the new, smaller DVD sized cases. As such the full manual could not be shrunk down to fit into the space available in the case.

What you get is a 90 page printed manual with all the key game info and the rest is offered on the CD in PDF format.

This is for the CDV version ONLY.

Madmatt

FORCED CDV version only. I feel like buying A DVD-movie I truly want to get with all extras, but it is denied for me because someone-who-has-nothing-to-do-with-me has a problem with it... Quite crazy, no?

Possibility to choose is what I need the most!

Too bad I don't have any close relatives or friends outside "restricted area".

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Originally posted by Apache:

Hang on, Hang on. Ant chance we can put the ICBMs away here.

Lieutenat, the situation looks to be stablizing. Reduce alert to defcon 2.

I wasn't attcking yo Apache, as I know you were not as well. No harm.

[Apache]

Vader. Wasn't relating the ICBMs to you. More to the other war that seems to be breaking out.

[Apache]

Sorry to repeat this but: Hang on, Hang on. Any chance we can put the ICBMs away here. I think the latest posts from BTS are a little patronising to say the least. As quite often happens before threads are locked up:

"Can those that want to make this into a personal and vitriolic abuse session continue by e-mail, off the forum?"

I have made my choice and sorted it with the kind help of Agua. Others unable to order through a US member will not be so fortunate. Tough it may be, but, if there is a solution they MAY like to hear it. Is that whining? BTS then suggested they were working on something that would hopefully suit the laterly referred to 'whiners' happy. If that ain't the intention don't post it.

Someone at BTS hide the testosterone pills will ya. Why hose down everyone on the thread? Sorry about this but IMHO that was completely out of order and uncalled for.

[Battlefront.com]

Apache,

Someone at BTS hide the testosterone pills will ya. Why hose down everyone on the thread? Sorry about this but that was completely out of order and uncalled for.

I don't think it is uncalled for. This is but one of MANY such threads that have been going on and on and on and on and... well, you get the picture

Bottom line is that we DO care. But we want people to keep things in perspective. Is the CDV version everything we would like it to be? In terms of the game... sure. In terms of its packaging? No. Are we going to do something about it, you bet. But does that mean we think it is great to be pissed on by some while we get the details worked out? Ah... no

Steve

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Feldgendarm:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Slippery_Pete:

Make your own manuel.

Great idea. I will make a Manuel. And also a Julio, a Pedro and a Hernando http://community.battlefront.com/uploads/emoticons/default_wink.png' alt=';)'> </font>