European manual query

[Fred]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Fred,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />We will get our original version; it's the way that e.g. Steve thinks he can handle us.

Obviously he never attended to business school.

No. Instead of reading about other people doing great things, I went out and did great things on my own. How about you?

NEVER tell a customer that he is a 'whiner'.

Customer is king. Period.

Wrong. A whiner is a whiner, Period. A customer, at least a valued one, is someone who understands that his value is related to his single purchase. Nothing more. Trying to get us, a small company, to do the bidding of a single voice is selfish. Trying to hit us over the head with it time and time again, and insulting us in the process, is whining.

We like customer feedback, positive AND negative. What we do not like at all is whining, unreasonable demands, and insults. Such customers are NOT WORTH THE PROFIT WE RECEIVE FROM THEIR PURCHASE and we would be MORE than happy to have them go away and never purchase from us ever again.

That what I've learned at business school.

Business school has very little to do with business reality.

Handling complaining customers is even more difficult, but telling them that they are nuts is NOT what I've learned.

Apparently business school did not teach you that pandering/lying to unreasonable customers only makes the problem worse. Telling them the truth makes things better, EVEN WHEN they do not want to hear it. That is what I learned from actually being in business. Perhaps I should teach at your business school, because apparently there are gaps in what they teach their students.

That TEN THOUSANDS of the twitch crowd now buys CMBB is fine, but what?

And you think calling anybody who buys CM from CDV is a twitch customer is MORE accurate than us calling certain customers here on this Forum whiners? I put it to you that it is more accurate for me to lable people here whiners than it is to call all CDV customers twitch gamers.

And, as Steves likes to repeat like a Mantra, its not about the ASCII characters (that are encrypted in the EXE file) but I do not like censorship in any way; be it some ASCII or the burning of books.

I like the right of free speech and, out of principle, I will not pay for the opposite.

What a bunch of crap. You are German, correct? You live in Germany, correct? You do understand that it is the German laws and software distributers that caused this change, right? So how nice of you to be so preachy about your values when you live in the country that forced us Americans to change things. Don't target us because we are easier to yell at. It is YOUR government that caused this problem, NOT us.

Steve thinks he is a Demigod; well, he is not...whatever some fanboys told him.

I don't think I am a Demigod, just someone who has busted his ass for 5 years to make the best games out there, even when everybody in the industry said I was stupid. However, I do think that some of our customers think of themselves as Demigods.

And I liked him much better in the good ole days, when he listened and not just defended his pov.

The only thing that has changed about my prsentation is my tollerence for unreasonable customers. Other than that, I have not changed at all.

Fred, I ask you this... have I listened to the complaints? Yes or no (ja oder nein?). A simple answer is all I request. Have I made it clear that we do not like the changes that were required of us? Another simple ja oder nein is all that I want to hear. Now, have I also explained the business perspective (which you apparently should grasp, since you went to business school) and the REAL impact to the game? Again, ja oder nein is what I am looking for. If you answered ja to these questions, then it is clear that I DO listen.

Now... if you think "listening" equals me bending over kissing a customer's butt and doing WHATEVER he asks of me... well, I am proud to say that I don't listen to customers.

Steve</font>

[Agua]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Augua,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I think it is making them feel unappreciated and their feelings are hurt.

Oddly enough, you said this about Europeans, but I can just as easily think of this in relation to us (Battlefront). We have knocked ourselves out for 5 years to make the best wargames out there, now we are being insulted and dumpped on WELL outside the perspective of what is really happening.

Steve</font>

[Apache]

BTS: That's fine. Can we just ignore the flame type threads and post when there is some kind of news on this. Personally I couldn't give two hoots now, my game is US and ordered. BUT, I ain't the selfish type. There will be others who are bothered here and elsewhere who may like to get hold of the manual if possible who will probably appreciate an announcement when it can be made. Best in a new thread I think. My concern is that if I know of 14 who have cancelled their orders how many more are there. Mind you, in the 1,000s you are looking at from CDV sales, it is probably irrelevant. That's the pity.

If others aren't bothered, fine, hopefully you live in free country. Just don't slag of those who want something that BTS may be able to provide.

[Fred]

Originally posted by Apache:

BTS: That's fine. Can we just ignore the flame type threads and post when there is some kind of news on this. Personally I couldn't give two hoots now, my game is US and ordered. BUT, I ain't the selfish type. There will be others who are bothered here and elsewhere who may like to get hold of the manual if possible who will probably appreciate an announcement when it can be made. Best in a new thread I think. My concern is that if I know of 14 who have cancelled their orders how many more are there. Mind you, in the 1,000s you are looking at from CDV sales, it is probably irrelevant. That's the pity.

If others aren't bothered, fine, hopefully you live in free country. Just don't slag of those who want something that BTS may be able to provide.

That is it Apache!

BFC looks for quantity, not longer for quality; those few of us added something to the game ( it was me, that proposed to give pill boxes a hide command for example) and thatis sad.

Fred

[Battlefront.com]

Fred,

But, sometimes, even if someone complains a lot, that does not mean that he is totally wrong!

Since you are interested in quotes, find where I said customer are wrong to be upset about the lack of a version of CMBB that is identical to the US version. What I have done is protest the unwinable position some customers have placed us in. Apparently the ONLY way to make them happy is to get rid of CDV. Since that unreasonabe and damaging to our business, we can not do it. So how are we supposed to make such people happy?

And, well, our schools must be very different...I would be fired if I would ever call a paying customer a whiner (I managed a company BB for some 4 years).

That is their choice, but it is a wrong one in our opinion. It is totally correct to say that a few customers create the bulk of the "trouble". Losing them would actually make our business better, not worse. We also do not think that lying to customers to get them to shut up is a good idea.

And, Steve, it is not german laws, it is your decision to use a german distributor, that has an impact.

Not correct. If we chose a UK distributor we would likely have at least some of the same problems. The manual problem for sure would not be different.

But again, I was challenging your "high horse" position about censorship when you in fact live in the country which has the laws you are complaining about.

And, to be honest, I saw more friends from the UK complaining than germans!

Perhaps. But the most complaints of the total have come from a couple of Germans.

And Steve...no manual...we are both wargamers...SL without a manual? NO WAY!

Er... who said the CDV version didn't have a manual? It does. It just isn't all in print, although if you have a printer that can be changed. You are making a comparision that doesn't mean anything.

Steve

[ September 20, 2002, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[Sgt Steiner]

Hi Steve et al

And we only found out about the change over to PDF very recently, we argued against it, and found the facts were not arguable.

Whilst (as usual ?) this thread is fast spinning out of control and I do (believe me) appreciate your business decision ref CDV in principal (and it is afterall your decision) I would like to point out that it is the above sort of issue that has upset this CM 'fanboy' (and others) ie the 11th hour nature of this 'revelation'.

I feel (rightly or wrongly) duped by CDV and to a degree BFC as to exactly what the difference between respective versions actually amounted to (and I dont mean just the actual game code).

I have not anticipated the release of any game so much since my long lost youth and the seemingly interminable wait for the Cross Of Iron expansion module for Squad Leader but I have to say (wether anyone actually cares or not is of course open to question) that I now have lost a good deal of my enthusiasim as I just can not ultimately be bothered with the hassles of CDV/patches/buying indirectly etc etc etc........ I get enough hassle at work each day and dont want the same in my leisure/hobby time.

That said (or typed) I will no doubt buy some version of the game and doubtless be pleased with it but its enjoyment is lessened somewhat (silly as that may be to others its how I feel) at this point.

As you also point out above I could always simply not buy the game (thus avoiding said hassles), I did not think I would ever contemplate this but have cancelled my pre-order for UK version until I see what transpires.

I genuinely hope that the Cdv link benefits BFC financially (as with CMBO) and I do appreciate that you are addressing the Manual issue somehow.

Ultimately I realise that I must lump it but I dont have to like it...........

Anyway enough waffling

"I Will Talk No More Forever"

[Apache]

Wouldn't it be better to just drop the flaming that's developing now and let BTS come up with some kind of work around for those not so fortunate to be able to source through a US member. As Gary points out this thread had and made a LEGITIMATE point but it's going beyond that now. Like I said, there is e-mail.

[ September 20, 2002, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Battlefront.com]

Augua,

My concern is that if I know of 14 who have cancelled their orders how many more are there. Mind you, in the 1,000s you are looking at from CDV sales, it is probably irrelevant. That's the pity.

I think it is stupid, yes STUPID, to not order thee game (at all) because it doesn't have a fully printed manual. Most games, good or not, don't have printed manuals. And most manuals suck really badly, printed or not. The quality of the game is what people should be buying CMBB for, not its manual.

Do you understand that not buying CMBB beacuse of the manual is the same mentality of people who don't buy games which lack a pretty box. If people really think that the manual is so important have lost their ability to see these issues clearly. I can not judge these 14 people, but I would hope they think about it again and see that they aren't being rational.

And yes... if I had to choose between 14 people and a couple thousand, the choice is obvious. Not because I don't care about the 14 customer's concerns, but because they are being totally unreasonable. Catering to them means limiting our income for no good reason. And that means limiting what we can do in the future for no good reason.

Fred,

BFC looks for quantity, not longer for quality; those few of us added something to the game ( it was me, that proposed to give pill boxes a hide command for example) and thatis sad.

Once again, you are being unreasonable and totally wrong.

We do care about quality vs. quantity. However, if you think it is possible to run a company without compromising, then you obviously didn't learn much at business school. Being in business means having to make decisions that are in the best interest of the business as a whole. The shortcomings of the CDV version do not affect the game at all. It might affect the PERCEPTION of its quality, but the real quality is in the game. A quick check shows we are in the games business, not the printed manual business. It looks like you might have forgotten this fact.

Steve

[Agua]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Augua

Ummm... I think you've misquoted me. Not sure if the rest of the post was directed towards me or not.

[edited to include the following:] The point is valid, regardless.

[ September 20, 2002, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Agua ]

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

I guess I must have missed something. How does Amazon come into this?

Perhaps selling used copies?

We have to bite the bullet and accept what we're given. We've moved on from CMBO in so many ways, and we just have to accept the good and the bad.

[Fred]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Augua,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />My concern is that if I know of 14 who have cancelled their orders how many more are there. Mind you, in the 1,000s you are looking at from CDV sales, it is probably irrelevant. That's the pity.

I think it is stupid, yes STUPID, to not order thee game (at all) because it doesn't have a fully printed manual. Most games, good or not, don't have printed manuals. And most manuals suck really badly, printed or not. The quality of the game is what people should be buying CMBB for, not its manual.

Do you understand that not buying CMBB beacuse of the manual is the same mentality of people who don't buy games which lack a pretty box. If people really think that the manual is so important have lost their ability to see these issues clearly. I can not judge these 14 people, but I would hope they think about it again and see that they aren't being rational.

And yes... if I had to choose between 14 people and a couple thousand, the choice is obvious. Not because I don't care about the 14 customer's concerns, but because they are being totally unreasonable. Catering to them means limiting our income for no good reason. And that means limiting what we can do in the future for no good reason.

Fred,

BFC looks for quantity, not longer for quality; those few of us added something to the game ( it was me, that proposed to give pill boxes a hide command for example) and thatis sad.

Once again, you are being unreasonable and totally wrong.

We do care about quality vs. quantity. However, if you think it is possible to run a company without compromising, then you obviously didn't learn much at business school. Being in business means having to make decisions that are in the best interest of the business as a whole. The shortcomings of the CDV version do not affect the game at all. It might affect the PERCEPTION of its quality, but the real quality is in the game. A quick check shows we are in the games business, not the printed manual business. It looks like you might have forgotten this fact.

Steve</font>

[Battlefront.com]

Gary,

I feel (rightly or wrongly) duped by CDV and to a degree BFC as to exactly what the difference between respective versions actually amounted to (and I dont mean just the actual game code).

I can understand this, but you were not duped. Retail industry changed its standards between the time we made the agreement with CDV and production was being readied. It wasn't CDV's fault and certainly it wasn't our fault. It just is what it is.

That said (or typed) I will no doubt buy some version of the game and doubtless be pleased with it but its enjoyment is lessened somewhat (silly as that may be to others its how I feel) at this point.

Please do me a favor... after you finally get a copy of CMBB, please post to this forum about a day later and tell us what your excitement level is. I understand that you are feeling down about things at the moment, but the game is totally unchanged. It is everything you wanted it to be and MUCH more (I am willing to bet). So what is the point of getting all down in the dumps about something will likely way very little on your mind as you are blasting away with your ISU-152s?

As you also point out above I could always simply not buy the game (thus avoiding said hassles), I did not think I would ever contemplate this but have cancelled my pre-order for UK version until I see what transpires.

I don't have any problem with this position, mostly because you sound quite sensible and will eventually see that the only person losing out by this decision is you. I don't say that in a mean way, but in a truthful way. Witholding your preorder doesn't hurt the retail store, CDV, or us. It doesn't really even hurt you either since you can easily reverse it. And I am sure you will as soon as you see how much more important the game is vs. the perception of its packaging.

Steve

[Apache]

This is definitely the last post by me to this thread. We may as well discuss whether I like carrots or not.

Not sure who Augua is. The point regarding the 1000s is that there are a number I know who have cancelled the game. That is their choice and they are sourcing a US version. It's a matter for them and no big deal. But if I know 14 there must be a lot more. Fairly logical? I am but one.

The box v. manual issue is a poor analogy. I could buy a radio control helicopter without a box but could put it together with instructions. I can put it together easier if I have the full instructions rather than a 'lite' version. Some like books, some don't. Does that mean that those that do should be berated into buying something if they have an alternative? If you (Steve) disagree feel free. They will not buy the game because you or anyone else THINKS they should. That is the point. If there is a work around they and others may re-consider. BUT in the grand scheme of things, whether they do or do not will be irrelevant. None of the sensible responses have suggested canning CDV, just asked for a work around but this thread seems to be losing the track, developing into a flaming arena where anyone who has the audacity to differ cops it.

[Fred]

Originally posted by Apache:

This is definitely the last post by me to this thread. We may as well discuss whether I like carrots or not.

Not sure who Augua is. The point regarding the 1000s is that there are a number I know who have cancelled the game. That is their choice and they are sourcing a US version. It's a matter for them and no big deal. But if I know 14 there must be a lot more. Fairly logical? I am but one.

The box v. manual issue is a poor analogy. I could buy a radio control helicopter without a box but could put it together with instructions. I can put it together easier if I have the full instructions rather than a 'lite' version. Some like books, some don't. Does that mean that those that do should be berated into buying something if they have an alternative? If you (Steve) disagree feel free. They will not buy the game because you or anyone else THINKS they should. That is the point. If there is a work around they and others may re-consider. BUT in the grand scheme of things, whether they do or do not will be irrelevant. None of the sensible responses have suggested canning CDV, just asked for a work around but this thread seems to be losing the track, developing into a flaming arena where anyone who has the audacity to differ cops it.

But Apache,

if not here, what else?

I know alot of people that wanted to buy CMBB through the website!

They wanted to give BFC money!

80% of them now will get a pirated copy.

Hmmm, well done!

Fred

[Kwazydog]

Fred, so what is your solution to this situation, tell us that?

You seem to be suggest that we should damage our position as a company and our future making wargames in order for you to have an extra 50 pages in your manual. And you seem to be completely ignoring the fact that we are working on a solution for this fact, too.

Dan

[ September 20, 2002, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[Cull]

Dammit! I couldn't help but weigh in on this....

These are "growing pains" guys. There's gonna be some. I know it's easy for me to say, being in the US, but sheesh! Is there anyone that will seriously withdraw their support for this company and their games because of a (minor, yes minor) manual situation?

If so, then good riddance to you! I for one would buy this thing if the entire manual came written in wax pencil on a friggin' roll of toilet paper.

Suck it up and drive on. Think of the seige of Leningrad! Think of the poor bastards at Stalingrad! Now tell me you've got the cajones to keep bellyaching about a goddamned manual issue.....

Ok, so that's a bit melodramatic. I think I made my point. I feel better.

[Fred]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Fred, so what is your solution to this situation, tell us that?

Dan

Kwazy,

my solution is simple.

Just allow the few europeans ( some hundred) to order the original version via the BFC website.

Fred

p.s. and do not get melodramatic. When CMBO was published, ordering was no problem for europeans

[ September 20, 2002, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Fred ]

[Battlefront.com]

Fred,

Fact is, that europeans pay the same price for a product and do not get the same as US customers.

This is true, and it is something we don't like any more than you do. But it is not something we can change without sacrificing a lot more. You can not see this because you are not sitting in my chair. However, you went to business school so you should at least understand the basics. Or did your professors tell you to only do what a vocal minority tells you to, even if it is going to hurt your business and all the other loyal and potential customers?

And, with all due respect, you start to sound rediculous.

As every true-blue wargamer knows, it's the manual that makes the game, not the counters or the map sheets.

The quality of the manual is very important. But there is no difference between ours and CDV's manuals. The same words are there, even if not on paper. So your argument is totally wrong. Plus, I would rather buy a great game with poor documentation (which is not the case with CMBB) than a poor game with great documenation. Every true-blue wargamer knows that a crappy game is still a crappy game even with good manual.

You can tell me even another time that my money is not worth the trouble, but we made you a biggie, not you.

Our mouth to mouth helped...so I am a little bit pissed that you call us renegades now.

No, I call unrestrained bitching and complaining, not to mention your very much intended insults, as being the problem here. Having support means having people that care enough to take reality and our needs into consideration when making their posts.

Once again Steve...even if I like the game, I still do not think that you are a demigod or even close...just a very thin-skinned male in a defensive position.

I am calling things as I see them. If you think that is because I am thin skined, you are wrong.

Apache,

The box v. manual issue is a poor analogy. I could buy a radio control helicopter without a box but could put it together with instructions. I can put it together easier if I have the full instructions rather than a 'lite' version. Some like books, some don't.

The instructions with the CDV version are identical to the American one. The only difference is that one is fully printed and the other is partially printed. Most game manuals, which generally suck, come without even partial printing. The CM manual is top notch, and no amount of paper makes it anything but.

Does that mean that those that do should be berated into buying something if they have an alternative? If you (Steve) disagree feel free.

I am not berating anybody for being upset that they can't get a fully printed manual. I am getting upset with people that can't keep their disapointment contained within the bounds of reason.

None of the sensible responses have suggested canning CDV, just asked for a work around but this thread seems to be losing the track, developing into a flaming arena where anyone who has the audacity to differ cops it.

Did you read a different thread than I? What I am seeing is unbounded complaining, that could only be made good on by trashing our relationship with CDV. I have not seen work arounds proposed at all (if I missed them, someone please point them out). At least not in the last 3 pages of this thread.

Steve

[Kwazydog]

But Fred, thats not a solution at all as it isnt possible.

In some fantasy world that would be great as it would indeed solve all problems. The reality of the matter is that no publisher would sign under such an agreement, and to be honest I totally understand that. Its no more possible than us all winning the lottery and sending out CMBB to everyone for free.

So I ask again...Fred, what is your solution to this situation seeing you seem to have all of the answers?

Dan

PS : melodramatic! Try readong some of your posts, I needed a coffee just to get throught the first page.

[ September 20, 2002, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[Apache]

I lied. This thread needs re-naming or locking up. It ain't got much to do with the point I originally raised and there ain't no-one benefitting from it now.

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

I agree Apache. The thread is no longer productive. We know BFC is on the case. Please lock this garbage up.

[Barrold]

Fred

Either you are unable to read English sufficiently well to be able to discern important facts and are therefore misconstruing what is being related here or you are really drunk.

Now your English is better than my German, but it is more than evident that you are not absorbing and processing the information you are receiving. Nobody has called you a name in this entire thread. Your opinions have been negatively characterized perhaps but you have not been attacked personally.

Your issues have been answered. Much as they may disagree with the packaging and manual, there is nothing that BFC can make CDV change at this point. You are being completely unreasonable (or are incomprehensibly drunk) to not even wait to see what the possible solutions are from BFC and yet insist on playing your one note over and over. It's like you're in an apple orchard and yelling about not seeing a lemon tree.

BDH

[Hertston]

Originally posted by Jack Arilliac:

Is there anyone that will seriously withdraw their support for this company and their games because of a (minor, yes minor) manual situation?

I don't view it as "minor".. a .pdf manual for a game like this is a major pain in the ass. But I'll still be buying it.

I'd settle for an option to buy a printed full manual (not the game, which I will already have, but the manual) from BFC. Say $15 including postage would be money well spent, albeit on top of "full price". It's more convenient and probably cheaper than trying to print it.

I just don't believe this stuff about packaging... application software still comes in boxes with full manuals. It's just cost cutting at the expense of customers.

[Fred]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

But Fred, thats not a solution at all as it isnt possible.

In some fantasy world that would be great as it would indeed solve all problems. The reality of the matter is that no publisher would sign under such an agreement, and to be honest I totally understand that. Its no more possible than us all winning the lottery and sending out CMBB to everyone for free.

So I ask again...Fred, what is your solution to this situation?

Dan

Kwazy,

2 years ago that was not a'fantasy world'.

Is your CDV contract written in stone?

I ordered CMBO via the website and I got it. Fantasy?

Fred

[Captain Wacky]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

So I ask again...Fred, what is your solution to this situation?

Dan

I would imagine it involves plenty of bitching, whining, some insults thrown in, a few wild anti-Euro conspiracy theories, and the strange belief that his minor issues with the game are more important than the thousands of new players who will be introduced to CMBB through CDV's distribution.

But that's just my take