Time is short for Mac OS9

[Buckeye]

Mac users out there know that CM will not run under OSX, or in Classic OS9. Rumor has it that CM2 will be written to run under OSX, but for now we must boot up separately under OS9.

Unfortunately, rumors are that, beginning next year, Macs will no longer ship with the capability to boot separately under OS9. This is a quote from the web site http://www.macosrumors.com/.

"In some not-so-surprising news, we have heard the first whispers of a new rumor on the grapevine. Certain individuals are quoting Steve Jobs as saying directly to more than one person while hanging out after the MWNY keynote in the new SOHO Apple Store: "Mac OS 9 will no longer be supported as a bootable operating system on new Macs next year, so get comfortable with OS X now."

The way we read it, this means that Classic will be around for a while, as run inside OS X....but that work to directly support new Mac hardware in OS 9 has already ceased, and new Macs released next year simply won't boot OS 9 properly because they won't possess the necessary drivers. This will hopefully be a relatively painless transition because it only affects new Macs, and should drive greater adoption of the new OS by developers as they realize that OS 9 is well and truly dead."

So, for those of you planning on playing CMBB and its successors on your Macs...buy now! Looks like we won't be able to play pre-CM2 versions of CM on a Mac bought after the new year!

[Andreas]

Or just hold on to your current machine (since it looks as if CMBB will run fine on anything up to 2-3 years old, 4MB VRAM iBooks maybe excluded) and buy a new one when CM2 comes out. I am very happy with my G4/400 and don't feel the need for something new at the moment, or even in the next two years or so.

If you are really desperate for a new machine, you can also always get an old iMac on Ebay to play CMBB on, that has the advantage of none interfering with your use of it.

[DrAlimantado]

Does anyone here know if new Mac's will be sold as dual-boots when 10.2 is released by the end of August.

As far as I understand, the present line-up is sold as dual-boot machines, right? Or do one have to partition and install OS 9.x separately?

M

[dalem]

Can't you just repartition it yourselves?

-dale

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by dalem:

Can't you just repartition it yourselves?

-dale

Hi Dale

I believe the concern is that even if the user does parition the drive themselves Apple plans to design the cpu and hardware so that it WILL ONLY run Mac OSX.x.

in that case you could try to install 9.2.2 (which is officially the very LAST version of OS 9 there will be) but the cpu and motherboard would only support OSX, if I understand this rumour correctly.

:confused:

-tom w

[ July 29, 2002, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Hoopenfaust2]

I wouldn't worry about Apple and their bad decisions. They haven't sold that many Mac OS X operating systems (as they had hoped), so they'll figure out if Mac os 9 is dead or not.

I run 12 macs at my design firm, all 9.2.,why...because everything works with everything. Why would I change to a new OS? Because its better? I can run 20 apps at once. Who cares.

Apple will realize the customer is always right sometime in the near future. If not PCeez are always cheaper and there is always loads of software.

[DrAlimantado]

Originally posted by dalem:

Can't you just repartition it yourselves?

-dale

The problem for me in this case, would not be formatting and partitioning. I have done enough Win/Linux stuff to do that until I get bored. The problem would lie in that if I buy a Mac, it would be my first one, and if it is not shipped as an dual-boot, then I would not have a OS 9 cd.

M

[Ben Galanti]

Just a slight correction to tom_w's post, it's not so much that they'll design the hardware not to work with OS 9, but that they won't update OS 9 to work with the new hardware.

Almost every new machine requires an OS tweak to get it to recognize the hardware, and they are just going to stop doing those in OS 9.

It's really just symantics though, since the end result is the same...

Ben

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Ben Galanti:

Just a slight correction to tom_w's post, it's not so much that they'll design the hardware not to work with OS 9, but that they won't update OS 9 to work with the new hardware.

Almost every new machine requires an OS tweak to get it to recognize the hardware, and they are just going to stop doing those in OS 9.

It's really just symantics though, since the end result is the same...

Ben

Hi Ben

Yup....

I completely agree with that explanation which was clearly more technically accurate than my own

Thanks for the clarification.

-tom w

[jeffsmith]

The issue of new Macs not being able to boot OS9 as soon as next year

(as it relates to CM:BO/CM:BB)

is not how it affects the installed base of Mac CMers

We are aware that we will need to have an older machine

But that anyone who buys one of those Macs as their only computer and then discovers CM

probably wont be able to play BFC/BTS CM products until the engine rewrite

As very small percentage of potential CM sales lost

but a percentage nonetheless

[ July 29, 2002, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: jeffsmith ]

[Jarmo]

My guess is we're not talking about january 1st, we're talking about this fall/late summer when revamped G4's come out.

Assuming there wont be any more 9 developement (not a big assumption) the next batch with new motherboards will just not boot to 9.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Apple to figure the customer is right, their back record of that is not that great. I'd guess when the non 9 booting macs are announced, the customers who need the capability will hoard all the "old" G4's they can get their hands on.

All in all, it's no more dramatic move than moving to PPC, eliminating ADB ports or eliminating floppy. Some will get burned and cry foul, but Apple moves on. If using 9 in crucial for you, plan to upgrade NOW!

By now, about 25% of mac users are on X, I recon this time next year it'll be double. If the users were given a choice, the transfer would take forever.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Jarmo:

If using 9 in crucial for you, plan to upgrade NOW!

There will probably be a two to four week window coming up soon when the prices on the existing models are slashed dramatically to clear them out of stock to make room for the newer models. So if you stay alert and keep your bank account flush, you could score some real bargains.

Michael

[Buckeye]

I hope the BFC folks take another long look at the possibility of somehow making CMBB compatible with OSX. It would be a real pity if future Mac purchasers were unable to play CM.

Hey BFC: Hint, hint!!!!

[Pzman]

And push the release date for CMBB till June 2003, no thanks. I sure wont be using OSX any time in the near future that I know.

[dalem]

Thanks for educating a non-Mac user.

-dale

[Zipper]

Originally posted by Buckeye:

Unfortunately, rumors are that, beginning next year, Macs will no longer ship with the capability to boot separately under OS9. This is a quote from the web site http://www.macosrumors.com/.

If that's the only source of the rumor, don't be too worried at this point. I stopped trusting that site after catching them in an outright lie about Java 1.2 on OS X a couple years ago or so.

Zipper

[kmead]

I strongly doubt this upcoming generation of G4 towers will the first OSX only Macs. There is still too much that isn't available for OSX to turn off OS9 right now. I agree with OSRumours that it will be sometime next year. Like Hoopenfuast, I run a ID departments worth of Macs (17) and if I were to buy a new OSX only machine, I would have to also buy all new software or at least rev what we have (a boon to Adobe). This would likely rival the cost of the machine itself and several products are just not available in OSX versions yet (such as Ashlars 3D modelers). Once I rev one machines software I generally have to rev all of them so that we have file parity accross the department. A huge expense for all the software and hardware, especially now when many companies (including mine) are very capital conscious.

By the way Apple is not alone in this moving away from older operating systems, today Microsoft announced that they wouldn't be developing any new or revising any hardware or software drivers for Win 98 v2, NT 4.0 or NT server 4.0. My company is still floating in the doldrums of Win 95 on many existing machines (thousands of them) and most of our ProE boxes are running NT4.0. So MS in their own inimitable way are performing the same trick of killing a old OS by neglecting it to death.

[WWB]

Originally posted by kmead:

By the way Apple is not alone in this moving away from older operating systems, today Microsoft announced that they wouldn't be developing any new or revising any hardware or software drivers for Win 98 v2, NT 4.0 or NT server 4.0. My company is still floating in the doldrums of Win 95 on many existing machines (thousands of them) and most of our ProE boxes are running NT4.0. So MS in their own inimitable way are performing the same trick of killing a old OS by neglecting it to death.

The big difference here is that MS does not write the hardware drivers for most devices, the manufacturers do. And winME and 98 and 95 use the same driver technology. The same goes for 2000 and XP. This does, however, leave NT4 hanging out in the breeze as it uses some of the same drivers as 2000, but not quite all of them. What you lose is the hotfix support, which really did not matter for Win9x, as they were all insecure by nature, but is very important with NT, as server security and reliability is key.

All this is a move by MS to force you to switch over to Win2000, which is a good thing in general. But the real problem comes in when one switches all the servers over one also has to move to Active Directory, which is a nightmare at best. Your directory services are one of those things which, once configured, one never wants to change unless absolutely vital. And moving to win2000 forces one to do just that.

WWB

[Gen-x87H]

By the way Apple is not alone in this moving away from older operating systems, today Microsoft announced that they wouldn't be developing any new or revising any hardware or software drivers for Win 98 v2, NT 4.0 or NT server 4.0. My company is still floating in the doldrums of Win 95 on many existing machines (thousands of them) and most of our ProE boxes are running NT4.0. So MS in their own inimitable way are performing the same trick of killing a old OS by neglecting it to death."

I can install NT 4.0 on an x86 hardware out of the box. NT 4.0 is nearly 8 yrs old now. Even after MS stops doing hotfixes and product updates that will be true probably 10 yrs from now. Plus MS rarely writes any of the device drivers. The hardware manufacturers do. Apple if they do this will prevent even the installation of the OS. Big difference. And if Apple does this. Big surprise they have a long history of just abusing their customers. Amazing part if they keep coming back.

Gen

[kmead]

My post was meant merely to show that Apple is not the only one trying to move users to newer OS's. What it was not was a criticism of MS.

OSX is a very good operating system that brings Apple into better feature parity with MS in regards to memory protection etc etc. Eventually MS will be in the same boat, having to be limited to the X86 instruction sets is someday going to become too limited. This also isn't a criticism of MS, Intel or any other PC mfr, its just that time does march on and more capabilities will require a new foundation.

Apple is a manufacturer and developer, not a welfare state anymore than MS is. They need to sell stuff in order to keep people employed and shareholders happy. I work for a company that does the same, I like that I get a paycheck. Apple has their way of generating a revenue stream, I find it agreeable and continue to buy their products. Clearly some of you do not and therefore you don't buy their products which is fine.

Is it frustrating that Apple will eventually abandon a familiar OS, certainly. Is it the end of the world, no, as OSX will certainly bring many new opportunities and capabilities we will be happy to have. I frankly do not want to ever go back to OS 6, 7 or 8 (much less 1, 2 or 3 or DOS, Win 1.0, Win 3.x etc) regardless of the age of my computer, nor do I ever want to go back to a 68xxx based system, a 601/604 or anything with less than 400mhz processor speed ( ).

Would I like Apple to fix the Rave problem so I can play my favorite game? Certainly, but frankly CMBO/CMBB will not be the killer app that regulates my computer buying habits. I just don't play games enough with 6 cars of various ages (as old a 33 years), 3 kids, a house to renovate, a job that requires a minimum of 60 hrs each week, and a wonderful wife who needs nurturing.

I certainly will buy CMBB and look forward to enjoying it for many years as I suspect this iMac I am now typing on will remain OS9 bound for the rest of its natural life.

[Buckeye]

Thanks for the dose of reality, Karl!

In general, I agree with you. I'd really like to see CMBB made compatible with OSX, but can manage if it isn't.

OTOH, it is too bad that in the future some new Mac purchasers will be unable to play CMBO/CMBB. I always hate to see the Mac community left out...and it'll be especially ironic given that CM itself is programmed on a Mac.

Ah well, time marches on.

[Jarmo]

BTW, I've moved to X at work. Running Quark 4, Photoshop 5, Office 98. All work just fine (well.. they work anyway) under classic. Almost every old app I have, works under classic. AddressBook from -95, MacWriteII from -91, just fine. I was pretty surprised seeing MacWrite work, BTW, since it's had trouble since OS8.

It's a shame CM doesn't work, and it's a shame Apple is not (despite the claims otherwise) too interested in making gamers life easy. But vast majority of users shouldn't be experiencing too much grief with the transition.

[Toad]

I'll happily buy and play CM:BB in OS 9 the way I currently play CM:BO. I'll even more happily buy and play CM:BB in OS X if / when it's able to - but I wouldn't ask BF.com to hold up the September release of the Mac version of the game just for that.

As I've said before, I will also pay money for a OS X version of the first CM:BO. I also like to think that there's an opportunity for BF.com to re-make CM:BO with the enhancements that will be a part of CM:BB and make some more money. I wouldn't have any problems giving my credit card number for such a "CM:BO II."

[Captain_Blue]

If Apple stops shipping OS9 before Quark Express for OS X is released, they will alienate the largest group of mac users - graphic designers!

I'm actually losing patience with Quark. They just released Quark 5 a few months back and they have given no hints as to when they will be OS X compatible. Quark and CM are the only two remaining applications that have kept me using OS 9.

I'm perfectly willing to do whatever it takes to play CM, but I may switch to Adobe's InDesign if Quark doesn't get their act together.

[Jarmo]

Hehee.. my guess is Quark will charge for the X update. On top of Q5 update.

It only took them a year to introduce USB dongles after Apple had

abandoned ADB.

But seriously, Q4 works just fine in classic. There's a screen redraw issue,

but that's no problem as long as you dont scroll...

(move around with apple-alt-clicks)