Short Summary of problems with the Beta Demo

[Claymore]

My opinions always end up favoring the "realistic" side. In NO ORDER then:

1. Explosions - Semi-spherical blast waves may be fun and sexy but not realistic, especially from the low-order HE in the gold demo.

2. Love those little clods of dirt kicking up around small arms targets.

3. Extreme FOW should not allow "Detailed Armor Hits" to be selected. How anyone even with Bionic vision can distinguish non-penetrating and penetrating hits from a distance greater than 100m, on a battlefield is ridiculous.

4. Portraits - what I am going to do with my Hamster mods?

5. Tracers - they still aren't like the real thing. Very minor nit. Pity they weren't rectangular and MOD'able.

6. So far I must say...Excellent invokation of the infantry "Assault", "Movement to Contact", and "Wave". While the TacAI may not be able to use these against other HomoSaps this really catches the flavor of the Russian infantry squad tactics. Without a doubt after further playtesting by the CM-faithful BFC may tweak the parameters slightly.

7. Interface Bar. Dean has done a wonderful job and I'll say to him "you can't satfisfy everyone". My own preference would have been to exclude the weapon graphics and colored armor bars for the infantry and armor, respectively. In the case of infantry a text version giving similar data would have been preferable. But Dean's product is fine by me as it stands.

8. The mini-map. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I mean really. I hope nobody spent ANY time on that piece of sh*t...oops...I mean fluff.

9. Blending of the SNEAK and CRAWL commands. Very good...very nice.

10. Landscape Graphics. What can I say. w00t! The immersive characteristics of CM are incredible now. Take a few moments and get down inside a burning wheat field or marshy ground and you'll see just what I mean.

11. HMGs. Ok, we can't have beaten zones and I still have not seen their "rapid fire" mode when being assaulted, but in CMBB the HMGs move incrementally closer to their realistic values. The use of ARCs finally is just outstanding. Caveat: This may be difficult to fully judge until we are able to see their effects on troops of higher quality however. I await with baited breath just how LMGs will be tweaked.

12. ARCs! Woo Hoo! Can anything be closer to the reality of small unit tactics? So very important and obvious that it's worth an entire thread all by itself.

So far all the other stuff I can think of that has been mentioned in this and other threads is just in the noise for me. More later.

Cheers

MRD

[Diceman]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

There are a lot of mods out there that personally I don't think should have seen the light of day, but I wouldn't be so crass, unthinking and unfeeling as to say it to anyone.

Very well put.

As far as shockwaves go: having spent more time on Ft Sill than I care to think about, I can tell you the new artillery representation is much more realistic. This isn't the Somme in April over land that’s been shelled periodically for years. Besides that, I think the biggest piece in the demo is what 75mm? That's puny stuff. I think the graphical representation does a fine job of communicating what's going on while not exaggerating things too much - and yes they are a huge exaggeration of the real thing. Watching heavy artillery for the first time was a big letdown. It's really unspectacular and boring, except at night, that is TOO COOL! But during daylight it's not much of a pyrotechnics display. The shockwaves had a nice cool factor to them, but they were completely unrealistic. I've seen artillery up to 8", and there is no visible shockwave. Overall, I really like the feel of the new artillery.

I think the game gives a much better representation of combat than CMBO. I think the graphic changes give the game a much more immersive quality. There is more to make it feel real, and the cool but illusion shattering shockwaves are out, as well as overly brave troops, and eagle eye tankers.

There isn't a thing I've seen that caused me to think "Oh man I wish they had done this instead."

I applaud those who are making comments with the intent of making the game even better. BFC went through more than one paradigm shift because of feedback given on this board; however, I don't see an issue raised that goes beyond different into the realm of improvement. No disrespect intended. Just my 2 cents.

[Hoopenfaust2]

Deanco your GUI is great and it shows how much work you've put into this. I assume you weren't paid like a regular GUI designer and had fun doing it so thats probably the best part about it. I don't know, maybe its because I'm left handed, but I have no problems with this interface. Its quick and sharp AND graphical.

People should think about innovation, it requires changes by both the creator and user. When a new version of Photoshop comes out, the first thing I do is figure what has been moved (and if it has, where to find it). Its not hard, it just requires some effort.

One thing: I can't hear the 'splosions like I use to (or is it because Capt. Wacky makes his mods so goddamn loud)

Since I'm not complaining I get my copy of CMBB before "others" do.

[ September 03, 2002, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Hoopenfaust 101 ]

[Col Deadmarsh]

Originally posted by MrSpkr:

The whining here would make me vomit but I just came back from the dentist and, with half my face numb, I'm afraid I would end up dribbling it down my shirt.

Wahh! No shockwaves! - Deal with it. Yes, there needs to be some graphical representation - like maybe a cloud of smoke/dust from the impact of an HE shell - but that is it. The shockwave from the houses was ugly, unrealistic, and silly. The new Dust Cloud effect should be sufficient.

Wahh! I want text instead of pictures of weapons! - Deal with it. The pictures are important because they tell which half-squads or damaged squads still have their MGs (which are MUCH better at suppressing than rifles). Since the squad can't split it's weapons up to fire at different targets, why do you need text to tell you firepower? If you have a target - aim at it and see the FP total. If you have no target, hit the [enter] key and see what the FP is at the various ranges.

Wahh! I don't like the unit portraits! Deal with it. They are moddable.

It is simply amazing to me the levels to which some people will stoop in order to shove a stick in someone else's eye.

Steve

How sad of you to have to call other people's opinions, whining. If you had half a brain, you'd know that whining is accompanied by a certain tone of voice. Since we're talking over the internet here, there is no tone of voice, therefore there is no whining...only opinions.

How about letting these people express their opinions and stop acting like some self-righteous a**hole? Do you think you can handle that?

[Zach]

Originally posted by TSword:

Question: Where is the Terrain info gone, where one could see wether it is dry, wet and the like ?

Easy to miss. Its on a mouseover of the picture of the terrain. AKA, move your mouse over what the terrain looks like, and it tells you what the terrain is.

A small nits while Im at it. I also prefer the older CMBO mouse scrolling system as I use a large resolution. Its often kind of a pain to make sure that your mouse is up far enough before you 'press' your curser to the side. If you havnt gone far enough down/up, then you have to replace the angle/placement of the screen before you go back and do it right.

A small mouseover/text popup would be nice in some areas as well, especially for us non-grognard/semi-grognard types. For instance, in a Russian infantry squad, do they have two varieties of rifles, or a rifle and a carbine? Something remniscant of the help-popups for Windows dummies.

[ September 03, 2002, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Zach ]

[Michael Dorosh]

The mouse hover feature was unexpected; it took me a while to figure it out. It's a nice touch though - and I'm sure the manual will explain it.

I didn't even notice the fence in Yelnya until yesterday, actually, so I am sure we will all take a long time to get used to a lot of things.

[Jarmo]

I pretty much love all the interface&gameplay changes. Combat seems a lot more realistic now.

But I do have one problem with the demo. The scenarios.

While there's nothing exactly wrong with any of them, none

seem to have the ability to grab you by the b***s and

force you to go on.

Maybe i'm just not so fond of rural stuff or something...

but... come on.. they could all be autogenerated

for all I know. That's just no way to sell the game.

Not that anybody needs to spend any effort selling it to me.

I'd have been ready to preorder before CMBO came out...

[Zach]

Originally posted by Jarmo:

[QB]Maybe i'm just not so fond of rural stuff or something...

but... come on.. they could all be autogenerated

for all I know. That's just no way to sell the game.[QB]

I have to wonder if that isn't affected by the "Tribes demo" syndrome. Where people were amused enough by the demo of the game that they never bothered to purchase the full version. The CMBO demo gave you a good look at a lot of different units and scenarios, a big cat, minefields, bunkers, a good sprinkling of arty, a meeting engagement, some big IG's...perhaps too much good stuff included?

Edited cause I suck at posting.

[ September 03, 2002, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Zach ]

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

Wahh! I'm gonna whine about this guy saying some other people were whining! Waaahhh! Maybe I'll curse too, that will make me feel all growed up and everything!

Dear Mr. Deadmarsh:

We here at MrSpkr & Associates would like you to know that we understand your lackwitted inability to offer intelligible conversation is likely quite frustrating to you and your loved ones. In all probability, this limitation has caused you social ostracization and acute embarassment.

You can rest assured that your comments, while halfwitted, have been given all the care and consideration which they merit. Really. We promise.

Would you like to register for our door prize? Please provide your name, address, telephone and social security numbers, along with a traced outline of your house key, the hours you are normally away from your residence and, of course, the code for any security devices you may have installed. We will forward this information to participants in a MrSpkr & Associates inner city outreach program in your area.

Thank you for your interest in our comments.

Sincerely,

MrSpkr

MrSpkr & Associates

P.S. Have a nice day.

[ September 03, 2002, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: MrSpkr ]

[demoss]

Do the graphics actually tell you what the weapons are? No.

Um, yes, actually, they do. Go to the Yelnia scenario. Find a Russian squad with a couple of PPD SMGs. Then go find one with a couple of PPSh SMGs. Note the difference. They look NOT AT ALL alike.

And all that for a virtually trivial difference in game terms.

[Stormin Norman]

In the CM:BB demo - Many things I love, some things I like, some things I don't like one bit(mouse camera action)

But, I think my sentiments are best expressed by ...

When can I freakin pre-order?

[deanco]

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I am not referring to any author/mod in particular:

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Nice try but no go, M Bates. We all know who you had in mind when you said that. The guy who made the Tank Girls mod, right? (BTW that was a damm nice mod)

------------

I accept also that 'total rubbish' was a silly thing to state.

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Yeah, I accept that as well since it was utterly without foundation (many people use and like my mods) and advanced without a shred of proof. But I suppose 'a silly thing to state' passes for a retraction around here, so I'll call us quits for now. Later.

[Panzer Leader]

Hey, Deanco, since you're here...

I really loved the notebook orders menu in CMBO (can't even play without it, when I reinstall that is the first mod I get) so uh, do you have CMBB modding plans? Maybe a mod of what "you woulda done" or somfink?

Or, would you say it is perfect as is?

Oh, I should add, I truly love the new look. It is a bit more colorful than I am used to, and there is a lot more variety in font, color, size, etc but overall I think it is a very functional and stylish look. But, man, I NEED that notebook interface!

[M. Bates]

Originally posted by demoss:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Do the graphics actually tell you what the weapons are? No.

Um, yes, actually, they do. Go to the Yelnia scenario. Find a Russian squad with a couple of PPD SMGs. Then go find one with a couple of PPSh SMGs. Note the difference. They look NOT AT ALL alike.

And all that for a virtually trivial difference in game terms.</font>

[TSword]

Zach, Thx for your info much appreciated.

Jarmo, was also a bit disappointed by the Demo-scenarios.

I just played Yelna as german and it rocks ! Assault with Veterans is just great. One can really "work" with the troops now. Generally play the scenarios from the side not intended first and they become much more interesting. For instance one can really sneak buttoned tanks now in the Steppe, great !

I cannot wait to create scenarios, there are so much more possibilities now. Soon CMBO will be forgotten i think.

Very good work done so far by BTS !

Greets

Daniel

[M. Bates]

Originally posted by MrSpkr:

The new Dust Cloud effect should be sufficient.

I wish I had your confidence...

Wahh! I want text instead of pictures of weapons! - Deal with it. The pictures are important because they tell which half-squads or damaged squads still have their MGs

Text or text&graphic would do the same and better.

Since the squad can't split it's weapons up to fire at different targets,

Squads can't split? What game are you playing?

why do you need text to tell you firepower?

Because if CMBB is filling a 16th of the screen with pretty weapon graphics, why not tell me something useful at the same time?

Wahh! I don't like the unit portraits! Deal with it. They are moddable.

The point is that the portraits inadvertently let you know the rank of unidentified AFVs.

It is simply amazing to me the levels to which some people will stoop in order to shove a stick in someone else's eye.

I agree! Brush your teeth more.

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by M. Bates:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MrSpkr:

The new Dust Cloud effect should be sufficient.

I wish I had your confidence...</font>

[deanco]

Hey Panzer Leader! Long time no see! How's it hangin'?

OK, on to your request. Get this: The clipboard mod is already done for CMBB. It was supposed to be in the game, but didn't make the final cut, that's why it's done already. So you're in luck.

As soon as the full game hits the...er, shelves? mail sacks? Anyway, when it hits the whatever, I'll mail you a copy. You da man, Panzer Leader!

While I'm here, I may as well let y'all know my plans for the CMBB release. First, I will be writing up my experiences as a humble modder among the Big Boys, what it was like working with Steve and Charles, kind of a post mortem, and posting it on my site. I dunno, maybe some people will find it interesting. Secondly, I'm planning on making a Total Newbie Guide to CMBB, with the gameplay explained in a manner that people who are used to Warcraft 3 or whatever can understand, and publishing it on my site. My biggest *issue* with CMBB is that it is far more complex than CMBO and since it will be on shelves in Europe, it's possible that someone could pick it up because it's sitting next to Sudden Strike or Diablo or whatever. So the guide will be aimed at the non-wargamer but avid video game player. Finally, I've have an idea for a CMBB interface mod ever since I started working on CMBB. Once people get tired of looking at the same ol' same ol', I'll release that. After that, ummm, I dunno. We'll see.

OK later all!

[Bastables]

Originally posted by deanco:

Hey Panzer Leader! Long time no see! How's it hangin'?

OK, on to your request. Get this: The clipboard mod is already done for CMBB. It was supposed to be in the game, but didn't make the final cut, that's why it's done already. So you're in luck.

Good to hear mate. I was actually disappointed that the clipboard was not in the game/demo.

[Panzer Leader]

Clipboard! I was typing 'notebook but I meant clipboard. I am very happy that you already had one, and can't wait to get my grubby little hands on it.

It's good to see that you are going to continue contributing to CM. As much as I love your mods (do those first!) I think the newbie-guide is an excellent - and much needed - guide. It is true that the complexity of this game has pretty much doubled with this version. Cripes! I still haven't figured out when to use move/move-to-contact/advance/assault.

There are many more commands, and many more variables that make this game more challenging to learn. Last night I ordered a tank-hunter team to 'sneak' and two turns later found it had crawled barely 50 meters!

Oh, and your 'memoires' an excellent idea! Just don't leave out any of the smut!

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

EDIT - Michael, your comments about "drab terrain" really surprised me - the bright greens and waving trees really made it seem like a pleasant day out doors. Perhaps your gamma settings are screwed?

Good thought. That might be it. I'll check it out. I hope it is something as simple as that since it is something that matters to me quite a lot.

I guess the reason that didn't occur to me was that it wasn't a problem that I noticed in CMBO.

Added later: Okay, I played with the gamma and color settings to get a bit cooler color and that helped some. But on studying the image longer, I think the problem is no direct sunlight and shade, which robs the scene of contrast. Probably nothing that can be done about that for the time being I suppose.

Michael

[ September 04, 2002, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[bsd]

Originally posted by deanco:

Thanks bsd. Yeah, I'm reading it, but that's ok, a bitch that doesn't bitch ain't a bitch.

I think I quoted that right. Anyway Deanco, you gotta keep in mind the average CM player. I mean, picture their clothes. Their houses. Their beards. Aesthetics and taste are lost on these folks. They have mannequins in full SS uniforms in the lounge!

Be proud of a job well done.

[russellmz]

i think deanco did an good job as well. the main adjustment problems are that the labels are smaller than usual for cm. so i just took labels from deanco's excellent interface mods for cmbo and it gives info as quickly. (except fitness and tiredness since the labels are nonexistent or different for cmbb).

[ September 04, 2002, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: russellmz ]