CMBO vs CMBB demo - poor scenarios

[Andreas]

Originally posted by MrSpkr:

One final thought - Andreas, you really are being a prig. Name calling and eye rolling at people expressing their opinion is stupid. You may not agree with it, but you are definitely not being all that constructive.

Steve

And telling people who agree with BTS that they are shoving their heads up Steve's arse is then?

Thank you for your constructive statement, you may head back to the Peng Thread, where your presence is appreciated by some.

[Battlefront.com]

Phantom Rocker,

Andreas, if people called whinners because they have an own opinion and tell them here, then I think this is poor.

There is a big difference between someone voicing their opinion and someone rehashing the same thing OVER and OVER again without any regard for what others think. One is an opinion, the other is a whine. Posts in this thread and others fall into both categories.

I find it funny that Steve remembers us that Scipio has started a SS/Waffengrenadier threat some time ago, but forgets that it was Scipio, too, who tried to bring light into the issue when he made interviews with Moon and someone from CDV about it.

Funny, I didn't mention Scipio or any other name. So are you saying that you think Scipio was whining before? You must since you linked his name to what I was saying above. And no, I did not forget Scipio's interviews. They were done sometime after the dozen or so threads I am thinking about.

Daniel

SS-Pz never did attack in a way as in Central Citadel for instance other then by accident

Oh... never say things like that, especially when it is so easy for someone to poke a hole in See previous comments about not catering to historical misconceptions It was far more common than you think to have armor only forces, especially during the exploitation phase of a battle (which is what this scenario explicitely simulates). Theory and practice were often not the same in real battle. And not that it matters, but the German forces in the demo are Heer, not SS.

Steve

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

there was absolutely no way we could adequately represent it in a demo. Even if we had included a half dozen scenarios.

I don't doubt that it's impossible to represent the scope of CMBB in the demo, but to me the demo is missing a real "killer" scenario. I was impressed with the scope of the Citadel map, and by the mechanics of the Yelnia scenario, but neither showcase the combat element as the CMBO demos did, nor do they provide a really good showcase for PBEM. I think you're preaching to the converted, which is fine in itself, but I'd personally like to see more people seduced by the game engine you've crafted. However, it's your bat and ball, so you make the rules.

[aka_tom_w]

Steve said

"I find it really odd that some people think that we should be chasing after people that don't want to

play our kind of games. This is suicide in the games business. If we get cross over customers (and we

do to a large extent, contrary to the opinion of some) it isn't because we dumbed down the game.

Steve "

To be honest Steve I think Jarmo and myself were only lobbying for a third or possibibly just one of the original two scenarios that would be perhaps been more likely to appeal to those "cross over customers" you refer to.

The point being here that CMBB was more than likely to be have been a SURE sale to anyone who likes and plays CMBO. I think that is a no brainer.

So the suggestion was to offer at least one demo scenario to attempt to appeal a little more to the cross over customer.

Now I know you might reply with something like: "Surely tom how much do you know about the video game marketing business? What was the last title you produced and marketed?"

Good questions

Surely you folks have be wildly successful so far.

We were just suggesting that maybe one demo scenario could have had a little more "mass market, or cross-over appeal" based on the fact you have us (CMBO players) won over from the get go no matter how unappealing or distastful we found the demo scenarios.

nothing more

but thanks for the dialogue in this thread

And Thanks for CMBB and CMBO!

-tom w

[Battlefront.com]

I too find it quite tiring that anybody that posts a critical comment, slam, whine, or anything else "negative" is seen as being Holy and Beyond Reproach. But God condem you to Hell for all eternity if you should happen to agree with Battlefront. It is such a horrible double standard, but it is one we have seen since the very first day of this Forum (nearly 5 years ago) and it continues to this day. So while it does not surprise me, it still bugs the crap out of me.

Critical feedback is not only welcomed, it is demanded by us. But critical thinking does not mean "any comment contrary to Battlefront's position", nor does it mean "only those comments that are not in support of Battlefront's position". Critical comments can be made in response to ANYTHING, yes... even people's statements that do not agree with what our position is. If a person can not take criticism of their own thoughts, opinions or feelings, they have absolutely no right to be critical of others'.

Steve

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Sirocco:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

there was absolutely no way we could adequately represent it in a demo. Even if we had included a half dozen scenarios.

I don't doubt that it's impossible to represent the scope of CMBB in the demo, but to me the demo is missing a real "killer" scenario. I was impressed with the scope of the Citadel map, and by the mechanics of the Yelnia scenario, but neither showcase the combat element as the CMBO demos did, nor do they provide a really good showcase for PBEM. I think you're preaching to the converted, which is fine in itself, but I'd personally like to see more people seduced by the game engine you've crafted. However, it's your bat and ball, so you make the rules. </font>

[Battlefront.com]

Tom,

The point being here that CMBB was more than likely to be have been a SURE sale to anyone who likes and plays CMBO. I think that is a no brainer.

Taking our core base for granted would be a very big mistake. The importance of the demo, as I just outlined, was to ensure that CMBO fans were left with NO question that CMBB is not just CMBO with new BMPs and a couple of new features which don't really change the core gameplay.

The fun, quality, whatever of the scenarios is always up for debate. Always. There is no one right way to make a scenario, there is no one audience which will play it. Some people didn't like the choices. Fine, but once again... it is impossible to please all the people all the time and therefore some people are NOT going to like them. If you are one of those people, sorry but that is the breaks. If we catered to you that means someone else will be here complaining in your place. So there is zero way we can avoid people wanting, demanding, whining, etc. for us to do things differently. We are in a lose lose situation. There is no way for us to win.

I don't know how many ways I can say this.

Steve

[Guest Mike]

Let's face it - there can't be too many scenarios in a demo!!

I jut had a thought - how about if they expand the demo with a few scenarios, a battle editor, a TCP/IP system and package it on a CD - it'd be too big to download I guess.

I mean you'd have to pay a bit for it, and it might take a week or 2 to come together, but would anyone pay, say, US$45 for something like that?

How about it Steve et al? Do ya reckon you could do that without delaying CMBB a single day?!

[Guest Mike]

I'm quite happy with the demo scenarios - they are great value for the price I paid for them!

I'm gonna put the CMBB demo on a CD along with the demos of CMBO, Tacops, Strategic Command, Medieval Total War (and a few FPS's to take up the space) & give them away to all my figure-gaming mates over the next couple of weeks

[ September 08, 2002, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: Mike ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Mike:

I'm quite happy with the demo scenarios - they are great value for the price I paid for them!

Exactly - all this whining is not from people deeply concerned over the profitability of the CM franchise over the next x years (I don't believe that for a second), just a bunch of impatient people who want to get something for nothing - to tide them over the three weeks or so until they actually have the game in hand.

My advice to those in the northern hemisphere - get outside and get some sun while the weather is still nice. Winter is just around the corner...

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

all this whining is not from people deeply concerned over the profitability of the CM franchise over the next x years (I don't believe that for a second), just a bunch of impatient people who want to get something for nothing - to tide them over the three weeks or so until they actually have the game in hand.

That's not it at all, but why discuss the issue when you can just label people who talk about this as "whiners"?

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

The fun, quality, whatever of the scenarios is always up for debate.

And that's an example of the attitude which makes this community work.

[Barrold]

I really like the scenarios, expecially Yelnia. I like it even though it was one that we dinked around with at Rune's first sneak peak.

I get an extra thrill from the desparate defense type of scenario so that is one reason. The fact that I have seen more of game such as it was at that time lessens any disappointment since I know the fullness that will accompany the CD. These are my personal reasons though and perhaps a different scenario would not have appealed to me in exactly the same way.

There is definite value to be gained from replaying the scenarios especially if you are interested in becoming a good CMBB player. My first defense of Yelnia ended in a bare butt spanking by the Russians. I switched it around and barely won with significant losses as the attacker. I discovered what I thought was going to be an easy rout turned into an exercise in herding cats towards an enemy line I could not discern. Now I am experimenting with different tactics and raising the difficulty to hone my skills. Hopefully I will have gained in my ability to herd cats.

Steve's explanation as to the background and the purpose of the demo choices satisfies me, even if I somewhat agree with the desire for another scenario. While some may disagree with the reasons for these choices, they are exactly in line with the stated purposes. As we only have a couple weeks to wait for the game, I fully expect this to be a true non-issue once the rave reviews start pouring in from the wargaming sites.

BDH

[Manx]

From what i've seen so far, i'm very happy with what BFC/BTS seems to have achieved with CMBB, and the demo showcases perfectly, some of the new features that have made it into the game. Besides, for me, the demo and it's scenarios (good or bad) are a welcome relief from the agonising last month wait until the real thing arrives.

Personally, i can't see any reason why someone who may be new to the CM series wouldn't find the CMBB demo a welcome and entertaining change to other games, and especially to those who have the slighest interest in wargaming. In these respects i think the demo does the job it is mean't to do.

[Scipio]

Well, I don't know if I was meant when Steve was talking about whinners. Even if, I don't care about such small things since I was called an asshole (or whatever) by somebody on this board with Madmatts blessing

I agree with Steve that you can't make it right for everyone. BTS thinks they made the best possible - well, I do not agree, and it seems I'm not alone with this opinion. I just offered my critic, but it is not up to me to sell games for BTS.

My final though here is : somebody said that the demo scenarios will be forgotten anyway once the full game is out. This doesn't seem to be true for the CMBO demo scenarios.

Cheers

[Dryfear]

Originally posted by Scipio:

Well, after one week with the demo I have cooled down a bit. If I compare the CMBO and CMBB demo scenarios, I must say that the CMBB's start to be boring very fast.

CMBO - 'Chance Encounter' and 'Valey of Trouble' were just good, simple battles with posibilities and lots of action. You just could see what a great game it is from the first moment you've started.

CMBB - Nothing to expect from the tutorial of course, but the two others are just so one-sided and dry.

In 'Citadel' you have nothing to do then see your tanks moving over the steppe as axis, waiting for contact, clobber the enemy, and drive on. There is no tactic needed, you always do the same. As Soviets you sit around, waiting for the Axis tanks to show up, try to make some hits and then sit around for another while. You have (except two tanks) no units you can move around, so in princip is the only challenge to make a good setup.

In 'Yelnia', you just place your troops (as Axis) then sit arround, waiting for the Soviets to attack and hope that the 6 T-34 doesn't clobber all your troops before time. As Soviet, you just move your T-34 in position and kill everything that shows up. The Germans have (historical correct) nearly no chance against the 6 T-34, while it is on the other hand as Soviets a pain to move you infantry around. The unexperienced troops just run away each time someone shots (realitic, okay), so finally you only need to move your T-34 and your regular platoons.

Well, the scenarios are maybe not really bad, but IMO they are just poor publicity. They show us some of the great new graphics, but they give us only a very limited view on the gameplay.

To be true, if I wouldn't be a CM enthusiast already and would base my decission to buy the game on the fun I had with the scenarios in the demo, then I would think three times to buy the game, and possibly would be the answer still 'no'. In CMBO I was just addicted after three turns, and still like to make a match with the demo scenarios sometimes.

Maybe it would be a good idea to add just something that show more bells and whistles. Something with more posibilities, so we can just experiment more with tactics.

Just my five pence.

Stop whining!

[ September 08, 2002, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: Dryfear ]

[tracer]

I said this earlier in the forum, I have had customers who are wargamers {and some who are not} really get into the game{ which like I said , I have CMBO full game on 1 machine, and CMBB demo on a 2nd one} They really like it, graphics, Tanks, all of it, heck I have even built faster machines for a few of my customers so they can play the game,{My thanks to Battlefront}Oh yeah and Steve {not to get off the subject}my uncle owns a tank, a old stewart,{guns deactivated}, it runs like a tractor, stick with the sports car,{hehheh}

[Manx]

I have a theory about all this business with the CMBO demo scenarios being perceived as being "better" than those included with the CMBB one -- CMBO was, or at least to me it was, a revolutionary game when it very first appeared, and i, like many of you, was totally blown away by what CMBO promised to be and virtually everyone who ever played the CMBO demo has fond memories of playing the Reisburg, VoT, and CE scenarios that came with the beta and gold demos. So here we are over two years later, and anyone who has been seriously into CM will have played literally 100's (1000's?) of scenarios of various types and quality.

Get to the point i hear you say. Okay, i don't think the scenario choices for the demo are bad, but maybe the scenarios will disappoint some because CMBB is an evolutionary product and not the revolutionary one that CMBO was, and as such, they don't have the same kick-in-the-teeth impact as VoT et al.

Then again, i might just be talkin' bollocks.

[MrSpkr]

edited because a pissing match with Andreas won't accomplish anything.

[ September 08, 2002, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: MrSpkr ]

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by MrSpkr:

edited because a pissing match with Andreas won't accomplish anything.

ok

Discretion is the better part of valour

you should be decorated for your discretion

So I will feel free to award you the BFC Medal of Forum Civility Honour for your edited post.

-tom w

[ September 08, 2002, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[KG_Jag]

I have been playing war games since the older neighbor kid got a copy of AH's Gettysburg in the mid-60s. Since then alot things have happened, including my earning a business degree from that school up north with the funny football helmets. After all this time my favorite wargame of all time (including some great combat sims) is CMBO. The CMBO demo was the best demo I have ever played. I saved the scenarios and they are on my hard drive today in my much modded CMBO.

It's not my money (although you just got some of it with my order) or my job on the line, but IMHO you guys have got the computer wargaming crowd locked. How many wargame of the year awards have you pulled down with CMBO? Almost all of us are buying or will be buying when the CMBB reviews hit the gaming sites and magazines. Wargamers are known for many things and fortunately one of these is a long memory. CMBO has not been forgotten since it came out. In fact its become richer with all the third party mods and scenarios that are available from so many great places. Where you are not known is outside the Wargaming community. This is where the demo should have been aimed. It represnts the next quantum level. For those of us who love the CM games, the fact that its issued by a little guy that cares most about the quality of its products, and even listens to customers feeds our passion. We evangelists and true believers want a demo we can take to others to show those new to CMBB what a great game it is. The CMBO demo did that. Just a few weeks ago I gave a copy to a co-worker. The CMBB demo doesn't cature the same excitement. It may well help you with some reviewers. It does not help enough to convince true newbies that they should lay down $45 plus shipping. Maybe some of your biggest fans think you can go farther than you do, and we'd like to have the tools to help. By the way, I'll be buying CM3, even if I don't especially like the demo.

[superpershingfan]

just wanted to add this, incase you didn't view the readme.

"The demo itself has been stripped down to contain only those elements needed for playing the included 2 beta demo scenarios – this makes the demo small enough to be downloaded from the internet – so that what you have in your hands is NOT the complete game."

^---(this was taking out of the first paragraph..)

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by superpershingfan:

just wanted to add this, incase you didn't view the readme.

"The demo itself has been stripped down to contain only those elements needed for playing the included 2 beta demo scenarios – this makes the demo small enough to be downloaded from the internet – so that what you have in your hands is NOT the complete game."

^---(this was taking out of the first paragraph..)

no one here has said the game it self is not GREAT, in fact I figure most folks here have already pre-ordered it.

What we are talking about is the choice of scenarios and the rationale behind not making at least one demo scenario more "cross over' customer friendly, meaning that perhaps one scenario could have had a higher FUN Factor in order to appeal to a wider non-wargamer market (perhaps).

But, Steve has reminded us that you can't please all the people all the time so the FREE demo scenarios we got were their best effort at marketing their latest master piece of a war game.(I mean that sincerely.)

It does not matter much really, all the hard-core wargamers will buy it anyway, no matter what the demo scenarios showed us.

-tom w

[ September 08, 2002, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Battlefront.com]

jagcommander,

The CMBB demo doesn't cature the same excitement.

I think Manx (and others) have hit upon a few things. I don't think anything we could have done with CMBB's demo could have matched CMBO's. CMBO was totally new, totally unique. The scenarios were not only played once, but many times. They had to be because there was no final game coming up any time soon. And because of that we made a 3rd sceanrio, and that too became a classic. When the Gold Demo came out there was one new scenario and one redone one. Those two were played to death for the months prior to release.

What does this mean? Like many things, it is very difficult for a sequel to match its original due to the unique circumstances which existed before either. Now people are, to some degree, jaded. And demanding too This is OK from where I sit. You guys have been loyal and really great to have as customers. But we still need to call the shots here.

The current demo is designed, first and foremost, to make sure that CMBO fans don't think we are offering the same thing we did 2 years ago. It would have been better if we could have shown Rarity, the stupidly HUGE scope, the full range of possible scenario options, etc... but to do that we would have to give the full game away. Obviously your professors would agree with me that would be a bad idea So we did the next best thing and that was to create scenarios that highlight the differences between the two games WITHOUT giving away too much.

Are the two scenarios that were included perfect? No. No two scenarios are perfect, and therefore whatever we chose would leave some people complaining. The question is, does the demo do what it needs to do from OUR point of view? I see no indications that this is at risk of not happening. Instead I see some people that have (understandably) unreasonably high expectations and demands that they wish to be met for their own (understandably) selfish reasons. I can accept that, but I can not accept their failure to understand that it is not our job to make sure that each person that downloads the demo is totally happy or we give them a new scenario custom designed to their specifications. That is, basically, what is being asked of us.

Steve

[Tarquelne]

1. The primary purpose of the demo scenarios was to highlight the differences between CMBO and CMBB. Why is this so important? Because if CMBO customers and game reviewers didn't see how different the game is then we would have a PR fiasco on our hands.

Ah. Thanks, Steve. I, too, was puzzled about the strategy behind the demo scenario design. I'd completely forgotten about the "Just CMBO on another front" accusation.... glad you fully anticipated the cynicism and lack of charity inherint in the average critic.