CMBO vs CMBB demo - poor scenarios

[Scipio]

Well, after one week with the demo I have cooled down a bit. If I compare the CMBO and CMBB demo scenarios, I must say that the CMBB's start to be boring very fast.

CMBO - 'Chance Encounter' and 'Valey of Trouble' were just good, simple battles with posibilities and lots of action. You just could see what a great game it is from the first moment you've started.

CMBB - Nothing to expect from the tutorial of course, but the two others are just so one-sided and dry.

In 'Citadel' you have nothing to do then see your tanks moving over the steppe as axis, waiting for contact, clobber the enemy, and drive on. There is no tactic needed, you always do the same. As Soviets you sit around, waiting for the Axis tanks to show up, try to make some hits and then sit around for another while. You have (except two tanks) no units you can move around, so in princip is the only challenge to make a good setup.

In 'Yelnia', you just place your troops (as Axis) then sit arround, waiting for the Soviets to attack and hope that the 6 T-34 doesn't clobber all your troops before time. As Soviet, you just move your T-34 in position and kill everything that shows up. The Germans have (historical correct) nearly no chance against the 6 T-34, while it is on the other hand as Soviets a pain to move you infantry around. The unexperienced troops just run away each time someone shots (realitic, okay), so finally you only need to move your T-34 and your regular platoons.

Well, the scenarios are maybe not really bad, but IMO they are just poor publicity. They show us some of the great new graphics, but they give us only a very limited view on the gameplay.

To be true, if I wouldn't be a CM enthusiast already and would base my decission to buy the game on the fun I had with the scenarios in the demo, then I would think three times to buy the game, and possibly would be the answer still 'no'. In CMBO I was just addicted after three turns, and still like to make a match with the demo scenarios sometimes.

Maybe it would be a good idea to add just something that show more bells and whistles. Something with more posibilities, so we can just experiment more with tactics.

Just my five pence.

[ September 08, 2002, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Scipio ]

[Sirocco]

I would have liked to have seen a better PBEM. I thought Chance Encounter in particular showcased PBEM well in CMBO, whereas the two scenarios with CMBB are quite one-sided in that sense. I personally would have preferred a scenario in an environment with more cover for both sides to exploit as a promo for the game. I have a feeling the demo really doesn't do the full game justice.

[M. Bates]

IMHO, the Citadel scenario has a nice epic feel to it. It's interesting to play around with the new cover commands, and setting up the ideal "kill sack". It's challenging from either side.

Yelnia Stare is only a bit of a stinker because of lack of buildings. A few buildings dotted around would give a bit more variety. I think Yelnia Stare is supposed to show off human waves and the new machine guns.

In short, the demo is ideal for experienced CMBO as it gives a good work out of all the new features. I'm not sure how new players would view it.

[Barrett's Privateer]

I second Scipio.

It's really too bad. The strength of the original CMBO demo addicted me into a game I would have never considered buying otherwise.

Right now, I'm on the razors edge of deciding whether to buy CMBB or not. I was hoping the demo would win me over but there wasn't really enough 'meat and potatoes' there to give me a solid impression.

I like CMBO fine but I can't say if CMBB warrants the $45 more to me.

[ September 08, 2002, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Barrett's Privateer ]

[Scipio]

Originally posted by M. Bates:

In short, the demo is ideal for experienced CMBO as it gives a good work out of all the new features. I'm not sure how new players would view it.

Well, what is written in the christian bible: 'You don't need to heal the healthy' (or similar, I have no English bible) We buy the game anyway.

It is true that we can see some of the new commands, but what does it mean for someone who is new to the game? Nothing.

[Tacitus]

I totally agree with Scipio that the scenarios in CMBB demo are poor and don't have the impact of those of CBBO. I asked a few days ago if any more scenarios would be released but the emphatic reply was NO. Perhaps with somebody of Scipio's stature within CM raising this point it might change.....!

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Scipio:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by M. Bates:

In short, the demo is ideal for experienced CMBO as it gives a good work out of all the new features. I'm not sure how new players would view it.

Well, what is written in the christian bible: 'You don't need to heal the healthy' (or similar, I have no English bible) We buy the game anyway.

It is true that we can see some of the new commands, but what does it mean for someone who is new to the game? Nothing.</font>

[Puff the Magic Dragon]

I second Scipio.

Just a question. Imagine CMBO and CMBB are two different games, both costs the same, and you mom (or wife ) allows you to buy only one of them. You base your decission only on the fun with the scenarios in the demo : which game would you buy?

[Michael Dorosh]

Madmatt stated several times now that the scenarios were not picked for balance but to highlight the changes to the system. Your preorders are placed already and you guys in the States will have your games by Sept 25th or somefink...are these continual threads about how crappy the demo scenarios are really necessary? It's been stated several times, it's been conceded several times, and no, nothing is going to be done about it.

[Captain Wacky]

Don't shoot the messenger...unless he keeps blowing that damn horn outside your window every morning.

[Tiger]

Yeah the CMBO demo Valley of Trouble was wonderful. Remember that first time you played as Allied and near the end that Panther tank shows up... wow!

BF could have done a better job with the CMBB demo in this regards. Perhaps they've become a victim of their own success and don't feel any need to make a really good re-playable demo, just highlights?

One thing I would have liked to have seen is some sort of airpower example.

-john

[dalem]

The demo scenarios are clearly meant to be demonstrative of certain features within the game. They accomplish that very well. Had the offering instead been two straightforward slugfests such as were in CM:BO demo, there would be just as many people complaining that "the BB demo scenarios don't show us anything new, they are merely repeats of straight up CM:BB fights with different units." BFC made a decision to showcase particulars, and in the short amount of time we have until the real release of the game, that seems like an overall sound decision.

This is one I don't understand any complaints about at all. We weren't even sure we were going to GET a pre-release demo up until a couple of weeks ago, for those of us salivating. And for possible new buyers, maybe there will be a different selection for demos that go out after release? Who knows? I sure don't.

I'm afraid I just don't see the point.

-dale

[Scipio]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Madmatt stated several times now that the scenarios were not picked for balance but to highlight the changes to the system. Your preorders are placed already and you guys in the States will have your games by Sept 25th or somefink...are these continual threads about how crappy the demo scenarios are really necessary? It's been stated several times, it's been conceded several times, and no, nothing is going to be done about it.

Michael, if you wouldn't know CMBO, what would it mean to you to know about the difference to it? It is nice that BTS has made a demo for all of us, but they better had saved their time an money, cause WE buy the game anyway. But I have doubts that the demo scenarios impress many people who are new to the game. A demo is made for publicity, to win customers, not to show what a great game it is to those who knows it already.

[Jarmo]

Agree with Scipio.

Like I said before on another thread, the maps have an "autogenerated quick-battle" feel to them.

[V]

Originally posted by Puff the Magic Dragon:

I second Scipio.

Just a question. Imagine CMBO and CMBB are two different games, both costs the same, and you mom (or wife ) allows you to buy only one of them. You base your decission only on the fun with the scenarios in the demo : which game would you buy?

CM:BB no question.

[Scipio]

Originally posted by dalem:

The demo scenarios are clearly meant to be demonstrative of certain features within the game. They accomplish that very well. Had the offering instead been two straightforward slugfests such as were in CM:BO demo, there would be just as many people complaining that "the BB demo scenarios don't show us anything new, they are merely repeats of straight up CM:BB fights with different units." BFC made a decision to showcase particulars, and in the short amount of time we have until the real release of the game, that seems like an overall sound decision.

This is one I don't understand any complaints about at all. We weren't even sure we were going to GET a pre-release demo up until a couple of weeks ago, for those of us salivating. And for possible new buyers, maybe there will be a different selection for demos that go out after release? Who knows? I sure don't.

I'm afraid I just don't see the point.

-dale

So you think it is impossible to make a scenario that can serve both parties - the long time CMBO players and the newbies?

[Scipio]

Originally posted by V:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Puff the Magic Dragon:

I second Scipio.

Just a question. Imagine CMBO and CMBB are two different games, both costs the same, and you mom (or wife ) allows you to buy only one of them. You base your decission only on the fun with the scenarios in the demo : which game would you buy?

CM:BB no question.</font>

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Scipio:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

Michael, if you wouldn't know CMBO, what would it mean to you to know about the difference to it? It is nice that BTS has made a demo for all of us, but they better had saved their time an money, cause WE buy the game anyway. But I have doubts that the demo scenarios impress many people who are new to the game. A demo is made for publicity, to win customers, not to show what a great game it is to those who knows it already.[/QB]</font>

[tracer]

I have to disagree to a point, I have the CMBO full game and CMBB demo up on 2 machines in my shop and I have had 14 customers who are amazed at the games as far as graphics and depth go,Heck I had to make 2 of them get off the games so I could close up, I think some of you guys {with all due respect sirs} are a little spoiled, heh heh

[Coffin 'Enry]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

...are these continual threads about how crappy the demo scenarios are really necessary?

With all respect, Mr. Dorosh I think they are for two reasons.

Firstly, they convey a point of view that is valid - i.e. the scenarios chosen are not likley to attract new customers.

Secondly, those of us poor buggers at the mercy of CDV are likely to be playing the demo for weeks after those outside the UK and Europe (I know, I know, but that's the way I feel this afternoon) can get their paws on the real thing. Therefore to provide us with scenarios of less than optimum interest, challenge and re-playability is to rub salt into was is an already very sore wound.

[MrSpkr]

Agreed, Scipio. Glad to see I am not the only one who thinks that.

Yes, it is nice for the demo to demonstrate changes to the more experienced players, but I sure as heck wouldn't recommend it to people who have never played CM before -- it is very complex and punishes mistakes much harder than CMBO's demo did.

It also gives people the impression that infantry is not modeled very well in CMBB because attacking is so difficult. I think a meeting engagement between matching sized forces in 1944 would have been a wiser option than (1) the Citadel scenario, whose sole purpose appears to be demonstrating the resiliency of AT guns, the new armor features, and new spotting features; or (2) Yelnia Stare, whose purpose seems to be demonstrating that infantry without significant AT assets will get spanked and that conscript and green infantry are very hard to work with.

Steve

[Rick614]

I agree with Michael. There are a lot of guys that were hollering "if it delays the release one day don't do it." Maybe that would have happened with a different demo. My main gripe to this point is that it took so long but we all know the reason. A quality product will be released when it's ready.

I have a game that's been on my HD for almost 2 1/2 years and I ordered as soon as I saw I could last night. I'm mad because Sat. morning I went to bed about 10 mins after Matt posted the go ahead but I never checked before going to bed.

Any one who has doubts about ordering can wait and read reviews and then decide. To me there is no question that my $52 will be well spent.

[Papa Khann]

For those of us already familiar with CM:BO, the scenarios in the CM:BB demo were well chosen to highlight some of the new features/changes. That was the stated intention from Steve and Charles, so I guess they achieved what they wanted to achieve.

I'm in the perhaps somewhat rare position of recently having "almost" talked a few more of my friends into buying Combat Mission. However, since the release of CM:BB was imminent, I told them they should probably wait until CM:BB is available to make the purchase, since many of us (myself included) may not be playing a whole lot of CM:BO after we get CM:BB. I know these guys are going to want to try to the demo first. And frankly I'm not sure the CM:BB demo is going to provide enough fun factor to lure them in. I do have a concern that the scenarios chosen would turn away a new player (MOST unfortunate, since I have every confidence that the final version will be incredible) rather than draw them in.

I guess I'm going to have to switch tactics and bring a copy of the full version of CM:BB over to a new prospects house and install it and show them the game first hand, because I really wouldn't want to tell a "newbie" to go check out the scenarios on the demo.

Keep in mind that I think the scenarios chosen for the demo are fine for an experienced player. The concern is only for someone who hasn't ever played CM:BO before.

Papa

[kmead]

For me, it was Reisberg, Chance Encounter and the original Beta Demo that caught me. To be honest, the Beta captivated me from the first 2 minutes VOT has never been one I have enjoyed very much, I have only staggered through it once and didn't really enjoy the experience.

Regarding the CMBB demo, I do enjoy the ones there, but I suspect I will only want to play them a few more times and I will have had my fill. They do show how much the game has changed. I had my butt handed to me on the first run through the Kursk scenario and then soundly whooped the AI the second time with the loss of only 2 PzIIIs. Both times I have played Yelnia I have enjoyed minor victories even though both times it went 5 turns longer. The tutorial was fun if a bit easy from the Soviet side, especially as I failed to follow orders and didn't use the human wave approach. I have yet to play the Soviet side on any but the tutorial.

So, no I don't think that the demo has the replay value, but it does an excellent job of demonstrating what the new game engine can do. Facing the steppe is a daunting prospect. The demo doesn't have to keep me interested for 6-9 mos like the demos for CMBO did (though I preordered CMBO 3 mos before the Beta Demo ).

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Papa Khann:

...Keep in mind that I think the scenarios chosen for the demo are fine for an experienced player. The concern is only for someone who hasn't ever played CM:BO before.

Papa

That too, but the demo scenarios are lacking in an all around sense compared to the CMBO offering. The CMBO demo scenarios, especially the one with the hill and wheatfields is still playable today. The scenarios on the CMBB demo do not have much replay in my opnion.